>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

SCANDALS THREATENS TO ENGULF BRITAIN'S BEST LOVED INSTITUTIONS, I ASK DAVID DIMBLEBY ABOUT THE CHALLENGES FACING THE BROADCASTER AND HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY, "WHAT'S THE MONARCHY FOR."

THEN A RETURN TO FICTION FOR BOOKER PRIZE WINNING AUTHOR KIRAN DESAI.

WHY IT TOOK TWO DECADES TO WRITE.

ANOTHER STARTLING DIATRIBE FROM DONALD TRUMP AS HE PLAYS UP HIS ANTI-IMMIGRANT AGENDA.

WE TALK TO ZAYNAB MOHAMED ABOUT HOW THE HOSTILE POLICIES ARE HURTING HER COMMUNITY.

♪ ♪ >> "AMANPOUR & CO."

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY, THE AND ARE SON FAMILY ENDOW MNT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILAH AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE PETER G. PETER SORN AND JOAN GANZ KOONY FUND.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

IT HAS BEEN A YEAR LIKE NO OTHER FOR TWO OF BRITAIN'S BEST KNOWN INSTITUTIONS, THE BBC, THE INDEPENDENT PUBLIC BROADCASTER, FOUND ITS INTEGRITY IN QUESTION AND FORCED TO DEFEND ITS PRACTICES ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS.

IT LOST TWO OF ITS TOP EXECUTIVES LAST MONTH AND FACE THE THREAT OF A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR LAWSUIT FROM DONALD TRUMP.

THE BRITISH MONARCHY IS UNDER SCRUTINY.

REVELATIONS OF PRINCE ANDREW'S RELATIONSHIP WITH JEFFREY EPSTEIN HAVE DAMAGED THE ROYALS' REPUTATION.

DAVID DIMBLEBY WHO KNOWS BOTH INSTITUTIONS VERY WELL.

HE WAS ONE OF THE BBC'S BEST KNOWN PRESENTERS COVERING ELECTIONS TO CORONATIONS AND AS WELL AS BEING THE FACE OF THE FLAGSHIP POLITICAL DEBATE SHOW "QUESTION TIME."

YEARS LATER, HE IS ASKING THE BRITONS WANT ANSWERS TO.

SO, DAVID DIMBLEBY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU ARE THIS INSTITUTION YOURSELF.

>> I'M NOT AN INSTITUTION.

>> YOU KIND OF ARE.

>> I'M A BROADER.

>> YOU HAVE A FATHER, A BROTHER, ALL OF THE FAMILY HAS BEEN VERY, VERY IMPORTANT IN CHRONICLING BRITAIN OVER THE DECADES.

WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS PARTICULAR ONE AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN COVERING THE ROYALS FOR ALL THESE YEARS?

NOW YOU SAY, WHAT'S THE MONARCHY FOR?

>> IT'S SOMETHING THE QUEEN SAYS 30 YEARS AGO, WHICH WAS THAT ALL INSTITUTIONS BENEFIT FROM CRITICISM, INCLUDING THE MONARCHY.

NONE OF THEM SHOULD AVOID SCRUTINY.

THAT'S BEEN MY WATCHWORD.

WHAT MADE BE INTERESTED IN DOING IT NOW, 35 YEARS AFTER SHE MADE THAT SPEECH, WHEN EVERYBODY WAS GETTING DIVORCED AND WINDSOR CASTLE CAUGHT FIRE.

THE REASON WAS THAT THE BBC HAD NEVER DONE IT.

THEY DO THE OCCASIONAL ANDREW INTERVIEW.

DIANA WHEN SHE'S IN TROUBLE WHEN THEY INTERVIEWED HER.

NY NEVER LOOKED AT THE MONARCHY AS AN INSTITUTION I HAVE BEEN COVERING EVENTS.

LET'S LOOK AT HOW THE THING WORKS.

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT POINT.

IN SCOTLAND AND WALES, WE ARE FOUR COUNTRIES IN THE UK, SCOTLAND AND WALES IS A NARROW MAJORITY AGAINST MONARCHY AND A RISING NUMBER OF YOUNG PEOPLE AGAINST MONARCHY.

IT SEEMED A GOOD MOMENT TO SAY, IS IT WORKING?

IS IT HOW IT SHOULD BE?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

THERE'S ALWAYS QUESTIONS ABOUT SHOULD THIS BE REPUBLIC, A MONARCHY?

YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU COVERED IT, WHEN THE QUEEN WAS THERE, THE MONARCHY WAS VERY POPULAR.

ACTUALLY, PRINCE WILLIAM, PRINCE OF WALES AND PRINCESS OF WALES, THEY ARE PERSONALLY VERY POPULAR IN THEIR ROLES.

WHEN YOU DUG INTO IT, DID YOU FIND THAT IT WAS OPEN TO SKRULT SCRUTINY?

WERE YOU ABLE TO FIND THE ANSWERS?

>> I TELL YOU, IT'S INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

I'M SAYING, I WOULD LIKE TO DO THE MONARCHY.

THESE ARE THE SUBJECTS.

THE POWER, THE WEALTH AND IMAGE.

THE BBC AGREED.

THEY BACKED ME ALL THE WAY THROUGH ABOUT THIS.

BUT GETTING PEOPLE TO SPEAK ABOUT THE MONARCHY WAS LIKE BLOOD OUT OF A STONE.

WE DID HAVE TWO PRIVATE SECRETARIES WHO WERE BRILLIANT.

THEY SPEAK IN A CRYPTIC WAY.

NOBODY COMES OUT AND SAYS, THIS IS THIS.

IF YOU TALK ABOUT TAXATION OR MONEY, THEY ARE DEFENSIVE.

IF YOU TALK ABOUT -- THE WONDERFUL ONE ABOUT WHEN DIANA WAS KILLED IN PARIS, WHETHER THEY SHOULD HAVE COME BACK QUICKER TO LONDON.

THE EXPRESSION THE PRIVATE SECRETARY USES IS, MAYBE WE WERE A BIT BEHIND THE CURVE.

IT'S THAT LONG YOU HAVE.

YOU CAN GET -- YOU CAN DISCOVER HOW IT WORKS, I THINK.

>> SHE WAS KILLED IN THE TRAGIC CAR CRASH, OF COURSE.

ACTUALLY, I THINK THE ROYAL FAMILY WAS CAUGHT TOTALLY OFF GUARD.

>> YES, YES.

>> BY THE MASSIVE NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL REACTION TO HER DEATH.

>> YES.

I THINK THEY HAVE GREAT DIFFICULTY -- THEY ARE A FAMILY.

AS WITH ANDREW, HE IS CHARLES' BROTHER.

THEY WERE LOOKING AT THE KIDS, DIANA'S KIDS.

THERE'S THIS CONFLICT ALL THE TIME BETWEEN THE FAMILY AND THE INSTITUTION, WHICH IS DIFFICULT.

THERE'S ANOTHER MUCH MORE IMPORTANT CONFLICT.

WHICH IS THAT OUTSIDE THE UK, OUTSIDE BRITAIN, THEY ARE LIKE THE KARDASHIANS.

THEY ARE GLAMOROUS.

IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S UNBELIEVABLE THERE'S A CHANNEL DEVOTED TO THE ROYAL FAMILY.

THEY ARE OBSESSED BY WHAT THEY SEE AS THE GLAMOUR.

BACK HERE IN BRITAIN, THEY HAVE A JOB TO DO AS HEAD OF STATE.

THOSE TWO THINGS ARE IN CONFLICT.

THERE'S GLAMOUR ON ONE HAND WITH ALL THE GORGEOUS COACHES AND THE TRUMPETS AND DRUMS AND THE HORSES AND ALL THAT STUFF.

THAT'S ONE SIDE OF A PROJECTION OF BRITAIN, WHICH DONALD TRUMP FALLS FOR.

>> YEAH.

SO DOES EVERYBODY.

>> THE OTHER IS THAT THEY DO HAVE THE TRICKY JOB OF BEING HEAD OF A COUNTRY THAT IS SUFFERING BADLY ECONOMICALLY AT THE MOMENT.

HAS GOT A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

THEY HAVE TO KIND OF ATTUNE THEMSELVES TO DOING THAT JOB, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT JOB FROM BEING SENT OUT TO AUSTRALIA OR TO CANADA OR TO THE USA.

>> YES.

WE WILL GET TO THAT IN A LITTLE BIT.

YOU WOULD ALSO -- I DON'T THINK QUIBBLE WITH THE FACT THAT THEIR GLAMOUR, THEIR VISIBILITY, THEIR ENDURING PRESENCE IS ALSO A VITAL PART OF BRITAIN'S SOFT POWER.

IT SENDS THE BRITISH MESSAGE OUT IN A GREAT AND COLORFUL AND RESPECTED WAY.

>> YES.

>> BUT IT GETS A HUGE AMOUNT OF TOURISM HERE AND AND ADDS TO T GDP.

>> I DISPUTE THE TOURIST.

THE TOURIST BOARD GAVE UP SAYING THIS 20 YEARS.

>> REALLY?

>> IT COULDN'T BE PROVEN.

IN TERMS OF SOFT POWER, I MEAN, THERE'S ONE -- THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE IT CAN REALLY WORK.

IN IRELAND, FOR INSTANCE.

SHE WAS THE FIRST -- >> THE QUEEN?

>> THE QUEEN WAS THE FIRST SOVEREIGN TO SET FOOT IN IRELAND IN AN INDEPENDENT IRELAND.

IT WAS A BRITISH COLONY BEFORE.

THAT HAS A KIND OF HEALING AFFECT, YES.

>> MET WITH THE LEADERS OF THE IRA AFTER THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT.

THAT ALSO HAD A PRETTY PHENOMENAL AFFECT.

>> YES.

YOU HAVE TO ASK WHETHER A PRESIDENT WOULD BE AS POWERFUL.

>> EXACTLY.

>> FOR SOME REASON AS AN INHERITED TITLE.

I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND WHY EXACTLY.

I DON'T ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND THE MYSTERY OF MONARCHY.

I HAVE COVERED IT COUNTLESS TIMES.

>> TO HEAR YOU NOT UNDERSTAND IS TROUBLING FOR ME.

THEY ALWAYS SAY, NEVER EXPLAIN, NEVER COMPLAIN.

THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE A MYSTERY.

I WANT TO GET TO SOME ACTUAL THINGS FROM YOUR -- YOU TALK ABOUT THE POWER.

YOU INVESTIGATED POWER, MONEY AND IMAGE.

THAT ONE HASN'T COME OUT YET.

THAT'S THE THIRD.

HERE IS THE POWER THING.

THEY ARE NOT ELECTED.

THEY ARE A CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY.

THE PRIME MINISTER IS ELECTED.

EVERY SINGLE WEEK, THE PRIME MINISTER -- I BELIEVE IT'S ON A TUESDAY -- GOES FOR THE WEEKLY AUDIENCE WITH THE QUEEN.

PLAYS HAVE BEEN MADE ABOUT THIS, FILMS HAVE BEEN MADE ABOUT THIS.

HERE IS WHAT DAVID CAMERON HAS SAID.

YOU SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT HIS MEETINGS WITH THE LATE QUEEN.

>> YOU NEVER KNEW WHAT SHE REALLY -- SHE PROTECTED HER IMPARTIALITY AND BEING ABOVE POLITICS RELIGIOUSLY.

YOU WOULD NEVER REALLY GET A FEELING.

>> YOU MUST HAVE AN INDICATION WHEN YOU ARE TALKING TO A PERSON IN PRIVATE WHETHER THEY ARE LOOKING AT YOU IN A STEELY WAY.

>> SHE WAS VERY CAREFUL NOT TO EXPRESS AN OPINION.

>> THAT'S DIFFERENT THOUGH.

YOU CAN TELL WHETHER -- WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS BEING HAPPILY RECEIVED OR UNHAPPILY RECEIVED.

>> YES.

>> DID YOU?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO ANSWER THAT.

>> YOU CAN ALWAYS TELL BY THE QUESTIONS PEOPLE ASK WHAT THEY THINK.

>> YOU CAN THINK -- YOU THINK YOU CAN.

BUT YOU DON'T ALWAYS -- IT DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT.

>> THIS REFERENDUM, ARE YOU SURE IT'S A GOOD IDEA?

>> ARE YOU ASKING ME WHETHER I THINK -- >> THE QUEEN.

>> YOU KNOW, EVEN A TRIVIAL DISTINCTION IS NOT CAPABLE OF THAT.

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

TONY BLAIR TALKS ABOUT HOW HE LOVED HIS MEETINGS.

MANY OF THE PRIME MINISTERS.

THE QUEEN LOVED THE OLD SCHOOL HAROLD WILSON AS A PRIME MINISTER.

PEOPLE DIDN'T IMAGINE THAT WOULD BE POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE ASSUMED DIFFERENT POLITICS.

WHAT ABOUT THE REFERENDUM?

IT'S A CONSEQUENTIAL THING THAT HAS KNOCKED THIS COUNTRY.

THE POLLS ARE VERY DIFFERENT THAN TEN YEARS AGO.

IT IS SAID THAT MANY PEOPLE WANT TO SAY SHE WASN'T FORIT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I HAVE NO IDEA?

>> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SHE SAID.

SHE WAS IN FAVOR OF VOTING TO RETAIN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT WHEN WE HAD A VOTE ON WHETHER SCOTLAND SHOULD BE INDEPENDENT?

SHE SAID SOMETHING LIKE, THINK VERY CAREFULLY.

MY POINT ISN'T THAT.

MY POINT IS, WHATEVER GOES ON AT THOSE MEETINGS -- I JUST HOPE IT'S NOT THE KING TELLING THE PRIME MINISTER OR ADVISING THE PRIME MINISTER OR RAISING ISSUES BECAUSE WE'RE A DEMOCRACY.

THAT'S NOT HIS JOB.

>> RIGHT.

BUT HE DOES ALSO HAVE AN EDUCATION AND A VIEW.

I'M LEADING INTO THE NEXT LITTLE BIT.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> LEADING INTO THE BIT.

THE KING IS ADAMANT THAT -- ANYWAY, HE SPENT A LOT OF TIME WRITING.

THEY CALL THEM THE SPIDER LETTERS.

>> 2,000 LETTERS.

>> 2,000?

THAT'S A LOT.

TO THE GOVERNMENT.

>> HANDWRITTEN.

LONG LETTERS.

>> THERE WAS A COURT CASE TRYING TO RELEASE THEM.

FINALLY, THEY HAD TO RELEASE THEM.

YOU SPOKE TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ABOUT THIS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THOSE LETTERS?

DO YOU THINK THEY WERE DEMAND DEMANDING?

WAS IT A BAD THING THAT THE KING CAN HAVE A VIEW ON CLIMATE AND OTHER STUFF?

>> I THINK HE IS -- I WOULDN'T SAY PIGHEAD ED.

THERE'S AN ELEMENT IN HIM OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT HE SORT OF HAS THOUGHT THINGS THROUGH THAT NOBODY ELSE HAS THOUGHT THROUGH.

>> HE WAS AHEAD ON CLIMATE, ON ENVIRONMENT.

>> THE S HAS RULED OUT.

HE FELL UNDER THE SPELL OF GURUS WHO HAVE BEEN DISCREDITED.

HE IS SUBJECT -- HE IS A VERY PASSIONATE PERSON.

I DIDN'T KNOW HIM AT ALL, LET ME SAY THAT.

>> YOUR BROTHER -- >> MY BROTHER IS A FRIEND OF HIS.

>> MADE A LONG FILM.

I DON'T FLOW KNOW HIM.

HE HAS OPINIONS.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER AS HEAD OF STATE IT'S HIS JOB UNELECTED TO PUSH THOSE VIEWS.

>> DID HE PUSH THEM OR JUST SHARE THEM?

I DON'T KNOW.

>> IF THE PRINCE OF WALES COMES OUT IN THE FILMS, IF HE IS SHARING HIS VIEW, THAT AMOUNTS TO PUSHING.

>> HOW MUCH WERE TAKEN ON BOARD THEN BY THE GOVERNMENT?

>> DIFFICULT TO TELL.

YOU CAN'T TELL.

THE INTERESTING ONE IS THE THING ABOUT HOUSING.

HE HAS A BEE IN HIS BONNET ABOUT ARCHITECTURE.

HATES MODERN ARCHITECTURE.

WANTS EVERYTHING CLASSICAL.

HE WENT ON AND ON ABOUT THAT.

HE STOPPED BUILDINGS GOING UP SIMPLY BY SAYING, THEY ARE A CARBUNKLE.

HE GOES TO SEE A HOUSING ESTATE THAT HE HAS BUILT, THE KING, AND LIKES TO TRY TO -- WHAT ELSE FOR THAN TO TRY TO PERSUADE THEM?

IT'S LITTLE THINGS THAT, IT'S HOW YOU SEE THE HEAD OF STATE.

>> NOW LET'S GO -- >> IF THEY'RE ELECTED, LIKE DONALD TRUMP -- >> IT'S DIFFERENT.

>> HE CAN DO WHAT HE LIKES.

>> THAT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE HE IS ELECTED.

I'M GOING TO GET BACK TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE SOFT POWER.

TRUMP HAS -- LIKES BRITAIN BECAUSE OF THE MONARCHY.

>> HE THINKS WE'RE IN DECAY.

>> NOT THE KING HE DOESN'T THINK.

>> WE ARE LEFT WITH THE KING.

WE CAN GO ON.

>> PRINCE WILLIAM, THE SON OF THE KING, PRINCE OF WALES NOW, HE HAS PURSUED HIS FATHER'S ENDEAVORS IN THE CLIMATE.

I INTERVIEWED HIM ON BRAZIL THIS YEAR FOR THE EARTH SHOP PRIZE.

HE ADVOCATES FOR CLIMATE ACTION.

HERE IS A BIT OF HIS MESSAGE.

>> CLIMATE ANXIETY IS A REAL THING.

YOUNGER GENERATION ARE SAYING, WHAT PLANET ARE WE GOING TO ENHIR INHERIT?

THAT NEEDS TO BE WIDER AND LOUDER.

>> HE HAS A HIGH POPULARITY.

IN 20 SECONDS TO ANSWER TO WHY THAT SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.

HE IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING AND IT'S GOOD FOR THE PLANET.

I NEED TO GET TO THE BBC QUESTION.

>> I'M NOT SAYING IT SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.

HE CAN SPEAK HIS MIND.

THE QUESTION IS -- THAT'S A BIGGISH THAT EVERYBODY IS ON THE SIDE ABOUT, ALMOST.

THERE ARE MANY ISSUES WHERE THE VIEWS OF THE MONARCHY SHOULD BE DISREGARDED.

WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY ARE OR NOT.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

>> OKAY.

IT'S A FASCINATING DOCUMENTARY SERIES.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SUCH A STALWORTH IN THE BBC, WHAT IS GOING ON, THIS PILE ON?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BBC SHOULD DO?

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE PUBLICLY DEFENDING ITSELF.

MANY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN PUBLIC BROADCASTING AND CAN'T BEAR THE IDEA WITHOUT THEOR BBC THAT IT WOULDN'T EXIST AS A PUBLIC SERVICE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

IS IT UNDER SERIOUS THREAT?

CAN IT REVIVE ITSELF?

>> I BELIEVE IT WILL.

PUT IT LIKE THAT.

I BELIEVE FOR ALL THE THINGS YOU SAID, IT'S TOO VALUABLE AN INSTITUTION.

WHATEVER YOU THINK OF MONARCHY, THE BBC IS THE OTHER GREAT INSTITUTION IN BRITAIN.

AND WORLDWIDE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

THAT IT MAKES TERRIBLE MISTAKES AND IDIOTIC ONES, INCLUDING THIS ONE OVER THE TRUMP JOINING TWO BITS OF FILM AND THEN THINKING IT WILL GO AWAY AS A PROBLEM BECAUSE NOBODY HAS RAISED IT AS A PROBLEM, AND, OF COURSE, THINGS LIKE THAT DON'T GO AWAY.

THEN YOU END UP WITH THIS TERRIFIC Y ABOUT IT.

I'M PRIVY WHAT WENT ON THERE AND WHY IT HAPPENED.

WE HAVE HAD TROUBLE AT THE TOP OF THE BBC FOR A TIME.

TROUBLE IN THE CHOICE OF THE CHAIR.

WE HAVE HAD TROUBLE IN OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOVERNMENT.

THE LABOR GOVERNMENT USED TO BE THOUGHT TO BE MORE FAVORABLE BECAUSE IT'S THOUGHT TO BE SLIGHTLY LIBERAL, THE BBC, LIKE CNN IS THOUGHT A BIT ON LIBERAL SIDE.

>> WE CALL OURSELVES NEUTRAL.

>> OKAY.

JOURNALISTIC NEUTRAL.

PUT IT LIKE THAT.

THE ONE PROBLEM IN THE BBC IS THAT PEOPLE ARE ABANDONING TELEVISION IN FAVOR OF ALL THE OTHER WAYS YOU ARE GETTING INFORMATION.

THEY ARE COMPELLED TO PAY 179 WHATEVER IT IS POUNDS A YEAR TO HAVE A LICENSE FEE TO WATCH TELEVISION.

THAT'S THE STUMBLING BLOCK.

FOR ME, IF HE THEY CAN GET THAT SORTED, THE BBC IS OKAY.

NO GOVERNMENT WILL BE -- MARGARET THATCHER WANTED TO TAKE THE BBC TO TASK.

SHE WAS TOLD, PEOPLE LL COME OUT OF THE WOODWORK TO DEFEND IT.

FROM ANY GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT WORTH IT TO DESTROY THE BBC.

IT'S TOO IMPORTANT TO BRITAIN.

MAYBE LIKE THE MONARCHY.

>> YOU ALMOST ENDED THE INTERVIEW RIGHT THERE.

YOU SAID, WHAT'S THE MONARCHY FOR?

NOW YOU SAY IT'S TOO IMPORTANT TO BRITAIN.

DAVID DIMBLEBY, IT'S A GREAT WATCH.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU ONE OTHER LAST QUESTION.

THAT'S ABOUT THE MONEY.

LITERALLY, ONE MINUTE.

YOU LOOKED INTO THE FINANCES.

THEY ARE PRETTY NON-TRANSPAINT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE KING IS THE FIRST BILLIONAIRE KING WE EVER HAD.

ASK WHY AND YOU DO A LOT OF WORK TO DISCOVER WHY.

IT GOES BACK TO PROFITS MADE IN THE SLAVE TRADE, FOR GOD SAKE.

IT GOES ON AND ON AND ON.

THEY ARE PROTECTED FROM ALL KINDS OF TAXES.

THEY PAY TAX VOLUNTARY.

THERE ARE CERTAIN TAXES THEY DON'T PAY.

THEY GET RICHER AND RICHER AND RICHER.

THEY DON'T PAY INHERITANCE TAX WHICH EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.

SO THEIR MONEY JUST DOES THIS.

AGAIN, THAT, I THINK IS A SERIOUS ISSUE IN A COUNTRY THAT IF THEIR MONEY IS DOING THAT, THE REST OF THE COUNTRY'S MONEY IS DOING THAT.

I THINK THAT'S A DANGEROUS POINT.

NOT A TIPPING POINT.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE A REPUBLIC HERE.

WE ARE FOUR COUNTRIES.

TRY HAVING A PRESIDENT WHO SUITS ALL FOUR COUNTRIES.

YOU CAN WISH FOR IT.

I DON'T THINK IT WILL HAPPEN FOR A LONG TIME.

>> IT'S AN AMAZING WATCH.

REALLY GOOD INVESTIGATION.

DAVID DIMBLEBY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

NICE TO SEE YOU.

>>> TO ONE OF THE MOST ANTICIPATED BOOKS OF THE YEAR.

TWO DECADES IN THE MAKING.

"THE LONELINESS OF SONIA AND SUNNY" IS KIRAN DESAI'S NEW NOVEL.

IT IS PUBLISHED 20 YEARS AFTER HER PREVIOUS BOOK, "THE INHERITANCE OF LOSS" WHICH WOK WON HER THE BOOKER PLACE.

IT'S A LOOK AT CLASS, RACE AND WHAT IT MEANS TO LOVE.

DESAI SAYS IT FELT SO BIG SHE WASN'T SURE SHE COULD EVEN FINISH IT.

IT HAS GARNERED HUGE CRITICAL ACCLAIM IN THE BRIEF TIME IT HAS BEEN OUT AND SHORTLISTED FOR THIS YEAR'S BOOKER PRIZE.

WHEN WE SPOKE, I ASKED DA ED D FEEL LIKE TO FINALLY SEE THE STORY IN PRINT.

KIRAN DESAI, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> IT HAS BEEN 20 YEARS THE WORLD HAS WAITED FOR YOUR NEXT NOVEL.

NOW IT'S UPON US.

IT IS HUGE.

IT'S EPIC.

NOT JUST BETWEEN THE COVERS, BUT IN THE GENERATIONS THAT IT SPANS.

YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO WRITE AN INDIAN LOVE STORY IN THE MODERN AGE.

TELL US.

>> I WANTED TO WRITE A STORY ABOUT HOW IT AFFECTS US IN THE VERY ELEMENTAL MATTERS OF LOVE AND LONELINESS.

I HAD THE IDEA OF WRITING A SORT OF MODERN DAY GLOBALIZED LOVE STORY BUT WITH OLD-FASHIONED, IMMERSIVE BEAUTY.

THAT WAS WHAT I WANTED TO DO.

>> SO IT IS ABOUT SUNNY AND SONIA.

THE STRUGGLE WITH INDIVIDUALITY OF THE WEST COMPARED TO THE CONSTANT COMPANY THAT YOU FEEL IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

WE DO SEE THIS PLAYING OUT IN MANY PASSAGES, INCLUDING THE ONE WE HAVE ASKED YOU TO READ, BECAUSE THIS IS PRESENT SONIA'S DAD AND HER GRANDFATHER.

CAN YOU READ THAT PASSAGE FOR US?

>> YES.

WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT SONIA.

SONIA ATTENDED COLLEGE IN VERMONT.

SHE'S FALLING INTO A DEPRESSION.

SHE WEEPS ON THE TELEPHONE AND WHEN WE CALL HER BACK A DAY LATER, THE SAME.

WHY?

SHE'S BEEN THERE THREE YEARS ALREADY.

WHY IS SHE SUDDENLY CRYING?

SHE SAYS SHE'S LONELY.

THE LAST TIME SONIA HAD TRAVELED HOME WAS TWO YEARS AGO.

LONELY?

LONELY?

WE HAVE NO PATIENCE WITH LONELINESS.

THEY MIGHT HAVE FELT THE LONELINESS OF BEING MISUNDERSTOOD.

THEY MIGHT KNOW THE SUCKED DEAD FEELING OF AFTERNOONS, A TIGHT, DRAWN-OUT, NEVER TO RETURN, WHICH IS A KIND OF LONELINESS.

THEY NEVER SLEPT IN A HOUSE ALONE, NEVER EATEN A MEAL ALONE, NEVER LIVED IN A PLACE WHERE THEY WERE UNKNOWN.

>> IT JUST SAYS IT ALL.

LONELINESS OBVIOUSLY IS IN THE TITLE.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO FOCUS ON THAT PARTICULAR ASPECT?

OF COURSE, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DIASPORA.

YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE DIASPORA.

YOU ARE NOT IN YOUR COMMUNITY IN INDIA.

>> WELL, I WAS -- ONCE I THOUGHT OF WRITING THIS STORY ABOUT LOVE AND LONELINESS, AND I WAS THINKING IN AN INDIAN LOVE STORY IN THE PAST, IN THE TIME OF MY GRANDPARENTS AND PERHAPS ALSO MY PARENTS, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CENTERED IN ONE COMMUNITY, ONE RELIGION, POSSIBLY ONE RACE, ONE COMMUNITY.

BUT OUT INTO THE BIG WORLD, IT COULD WIND IN SO MANY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

IT COULD TAKE SO MANY DIFFERENT FORMS.

IT SEEMS A MATTER OF CHANCE WHO ONE MIGHT MEAN WHEN AND WHERE.

ONCE I DID THIS, I REALIZED THAT AS SONIA AND SUNNY GO THROUGH MANY COUNTRIES, ITALY AND MEXICO AND THE UNITED STATES AND INDIA, AND I REALIZED THAT I COULD ACTUALLY EXPAND THE IDEA OF LONELINESS AND TALK ABOUT THE FISSURES OF MODERN WORLD AND ALL THE DIVIDES BETWEEN NATIONS, THE RAGE BETWEEN NATIONS, THE DISTRUST BETWEEN RACES, BETWEEN GENDERS, CLASS DIVIDES, THAT SEEM TO GROW BIGGER AS A KIND OF LONELINESS.

>> I'M GOING TO PICK UP ON ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID, THAT'S RACE.

BECAUSE SUNNY, THE MALE TITLE HERE, PARTICULARLY HE QUESTIONS HIS PLACE AS AN IMMIGRANT IN THE UNITED STATES IN YOUR NOVEL.

HE FEELS THAT IT'S A PLACE OBSESSED WITH RACE AND SKIN COLOR.

I WANT TO READ FROM YOUR BOOK.

WHEN WAS IT THAT SUNNY HAD LEARNED THE UNITED STATES WAS ABOUT ONLY ONE THING?

IN THE MORNING, WHEN HE TURNED ON PUBLIC RADIO IT BEGAN, RACE, RACE, RACE.

WHEN HE UNFOLDED THE NEWSPAPER, RACE, RACE, RACE.

THE ECONOMY, THE ENVIRONMENT, THE JOURNALISM, THE STARBUCKS REST ROOM, THE SEAT ON PLANE, THE CONVERSATION CAME DOWN IN A HAMMER BLOW, RACE.

TALK ABOUT THE RACE THAT YOU ARE WRITING ABOUT THAT SUNNY IS EXPERIENCING WRITING THIS BOOK.

YOU HAVE IT HAPPENING ON THE GROUND IN THE UNITED STATES WITH ALL THE CRACKDOWN ON IMMIGRANT POPULATIONS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S SO FASCINATING.

I THINK IMMIGRANTS COME FROM VERY COMPLEX PASTS, OFTEN FLEEING DIFFICULT SITUATIONS.

THEN THEY REALIZE WHEN THEY COME TO THE UNITED STATES, THINKING OF IT AS A FRESH NEW COUNTRY, THAT IT IS ALSO A COUNTRY WITH AN ENORMOUS BURDEN OF HISTORY.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I REALIZED WHEN I ARRIVED IN THE UNITED STATES AND IT WAS EXACTLY AS SUNNY DESCRIBES IT, RACE, RACE, RACE.

WHICH IS, OF COURSE, NOT SOMETHING YOU THINK ABOUT IN INDIA.

>> I WANT TO ASK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

WE HEAR THIS MORE AND MORE AS A CRITICISM THAT THE BEGINNING OF THE NOVEL SONIA SHOWS HER ARTIST BOYFRIEND A NOVEL SHE'S WORKING ON.

>>> HE TELLS HER IT'S TOO CLICHE.

SONIA GOES ON TO CHANGE THE DESCRIPTIONS SHE HAS FOR WESTERN AUDIENCES.

IS THAT A BIG PRESSURE, DO YOU THINK?

IS THAT VALID?

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY VALID.

I THINK THERE'S AN ENORMOUS ANXIETY ABOUT HOW INDIA IS WRITTEN ABOUT, PERHAPS HOW NON-WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE WRITTEN ABOUT IN THE WESTERN WORLD, WHICH IS THE BIG PUBLISHING WORLD.

I THINK THAT THIS IS AN OLD ANXIETY AND IT TENDS TO RISE IF YOUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY UNDERREPRESENTED ON THE WORLD STAGE.

AND IF THAT REPRESENTATION IS SEEN AS CRUCIAL AND IF THE MISTAKES OF THE PAST HAVE BEEN TOO COSTLY TO REPEAT, THEN PEOPLE ARE VERY AWARE OF HOW INDIA IS BEING PORTRAYED OVERSEAS, EXTREMELY WORRIED THAT A CERTAIN KIND OF INDIA IS BEING SOLD TO A WESTERN AUDIENCE AND THAT A MORE AUTHENTIC, REAL INDIA IS NOT BEING.

SO I THINK AS A WRITER, FROM THIS PART OF THE WORLD, YOU HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS OF IT.

YOU ARE ALWAYS CONSCIOUS OF IT.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS IS THAT -- NOT YOU, BUT GENERALLY, SOME STORIES ARE FOCUSED ON ARRANGED MARRIAGES.

THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

IT'S REALLY COMMON IN INDIA.

RIGHT?

>> MOST MARRIAGES.

MOST MARRIAGES ARE ARRANGED.

SO THE QUESTION BECOMES EXOTIC TO WHOM?

YET, THERE IS THAT WORRY THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING BEGUILED BY EXOTIC SEASONS SUCH AS THE MONSOON AND BY PEACOCKS, OBLITERATING CLOUDS OF SPICES.

AND A KIND OF CHEAP VERSION.

IT'S DEMEANING THE SOUL OF THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHAT'S BEING SOLD IN AN ORIENTAL BAZAAR.

IT WAS IMPORTANT TO PUT THEM ALL IN THE BOOK.

IT'S A QUESTION OF, WHO HAS THE POWER TO TELL THESE STORIES OVERSEAS?

A REAL ANXIETY THAT WRITERS LIKE MYSELF WHO ARE VERY WESTERNIZED AND ARE SPEAKING ENGLISH, A LANGUAGE THAT IS SOMETIMES ACCUSED OF NOT BEING ABLE TO CAPTURE INDIA AT ALL.

THE FORM OF A NOVEL, A WESTERN FORM, WHICH CAME TO INDIA ALONG WITH THE BRITISH.

THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT STORYTELLING ARE, OF COURSE, IN MY MIND.

>> THAT'S SO INTERESTING.

I WANT TO GO BACK A LITTLE BIT ALSO -- TO THE PRESENT, BUT YOUR MOTHER ALSO IS AN EXCEPTIONAL WRITER.

SHE HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR THE BOOKER THREE TIMES.

YOU WON IT, THE BOOKER, FOR YOUR PREVIOUS NOVEL IN 2006.

SHE'S THE ONLY PERSON, I UNDERSTAND, WHO YOU SHOW YOUR EARLY WORK TO.

DESCRIBE THAT RELATIONSHIP AND WHAT SHE MAKES OF THE FACT THAT YOU WON THE PRIZE THAT SHE HASN'T YET.

>> WELL, IT'S A BIT RIDICULOUS.

WE HAVE BOTH BEEN NOMINATED NOW I THINK FIVE TIMES.

MOTHER AND DAUGHTER.

>> AMAZING.

>> YOU KNOW, I -- SHE HAS A VERY FASCINATING BACKGROUND WITH A GERMAN MOTHER AND A FATHER WHO CAME FROM WHAT IS NOW BANGLADESH.

SHE HAD AN EXTRAORDINARY BOOKSHELF.

SHE GREW UP WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY BOOKSHELF FROM EUROPEAN AND INDIAN COMBINATION OF THOSE TWO THINGS, THOSE TWO IDEAS OF WRITING AND STORYTELLING.

I INHERITED THAT BOOKSHELF.

IT HAS BEEN SO IMPORTANT TO ME IN MY WRITING LIFE.

SO SHE DOES READ MY WORK.

BUT SHE READS IT, I THINK -- SHE KNOWS THE LANDSCAPES I'M WRITING FROM MORE THAN ANYONE.

SO SHE CAN INTUIT WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY.

SOMETIMES WE WRITE FROM THE SAME LANDSCAPE, THE SAME SVERRE AN V IN MY NOVEL AND HER NOVEL.

>> THAT'S A NICE CONNECTION.

SHE LET IT NOT BE FORGOTTEN, HELPED TO PAVE THE WAY FOR A GENERATION OF GREAT INDIAN WRITERS, LIKE YOURSELF, BUT ALSO SALMAN RUSHDI.

IN INDIA, STORIES GROW ON TREES.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT INDIA THAT MAKES IT SUCH A FASCINATING PLACE TO TELL THESE STORIES ABOUT?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK IT IS?

I THINK IT'S THE EXTRAORDINARY DIVERSITY OF INDIA.

THE FACT THAT -- THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I WORRY IS CHANGING.

INDIA AS A COUNTRY WITH SO MANY LANGUAGES AND PEOPLE OF SO MANY DIFFERENT FAITHS.

YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES TO DRAW ON AS A WRITER.

IT'S SUCH AN EXUBERANT WRITING TERRITORY.

PEOPLE WHO MAY BE BUDDHIST, HUNDRED DUE, MUSLIM, CHRISTIAN, SIKH.

YOU COULD ARGUE THAT'S WHY THE UNITED STATES IS ALSO VERY VIBRANT LITERARY.

YOU COULD WRITE ABOUT PEOPLE VERY DIFFERENT FROM YOURSELF WITH INTIMACY, KNOWLEDGE AND AFFECTION.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS, I THINK, I WORRY IT'S CHANGING IN INDIA WITH THE RISE OF NATIONALISM.

SO I ALWAYS THINK THAT WHAT WE ARE FIGHTING FOR IS NOT ONLY A SECULAR DEMOCRACY, NOT ONLY HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT ALSO A LITERARY LANDSCAPE WHICH HAS BEEN SO PRECIOUS TO ME.

>> VEERING INTO THE POLITICS, YOU TALK ABOUT THE RISE OF NATIONALISM.

IN THE BOOK, ONE OF THE CHARACTERS IS FIRED FOR HAVING STATUES IN HIS OFFICE.

THERE ARE DINNER PARTIES DISCUSSING THE TOPIC.

THE FRICTIONS EMERGING BETWEEN FRIENDS.

THAT ALSO -- THAT POLITICS POPULATES THIS NOVEL.

>> IT DOES.

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN LEAVE THAT OUT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW WRITERS WRITE LEAVING THE POLITICS OUT OF A NOVEL.

I THINK IT ABSOLUTELY HAS TO BE POLITICS FOR THE SAKE OF ART, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

I WAS VERY CONSCIOUS OF THAT.

HOW THESE EVENTS, EVEN FOR CHARACTERS WHO ARE NOT DIRECTLY EXPERIENCING THE VIOLENCE, HOW IT CHANGES ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ABOUT THEIR LIVES.

VERY CURIOUS ABOUT FOLLOWING -- I WANTED TO FOLLOW THOSE UNDERCURRENTS OF HISTORY, YOU KNOW, THE FEELING OF -- THE DREAD OF KNOWING THAT THERE IS A DARKER UNDERCURRENT OF HISTORY THAT YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN IT'S GOING TO COME BUSTING OUT AND WHO THE VIOLENCE WILL ENSNARE.

THAT IS SOMETHING I WAS VERY CONSCIOUS OF GROWING UP IN INDIA.

I LIVED -- I WAS A CHILD WHEN THE HINDU SIKH RIOTS HAPPENED.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, DO YOU FEEL THAT AUTHORS LIVING IN INDIA TODAY CAN WRITE FREELY, WITHOUT FEAR OF CRACKDOWNS OR CENSORSHIP?

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT I HAVE NOTICED IS THAT ONCE FEARJECTED INTO A SOCIETY, THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE END.

I HAVE SEEN THAT FEAR JUST TO AN EXTRAORDINARY DEGREE IN INDIA.

I WOULD SAY THAT, NO, PEOPLE ARE VERY, VERY, VERY SCARED AND VERY WORRIED.

>> AND YET IN NEW YORK CITY, WE HAVE -- YOU HAVE A MEMBER OF THE INDIAN DIASPORA HIMSELF, MAMDANI, WHO HAS BEEN ELECTED MAYOR, AGAINST ALL EXPECTATIONS AND QUITE A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM MORE ESTABLISHMENT CANDIDATES.

BUT HE IS.

THERE'S BEEN A HUGE AMOUNT OF JOY, NOT JUST AMONGST THE INDIAN DIASPORA, BUT MANY PEOPLE IN NEW YORK AND AROUND THE WORLD.

>> THAT'S MY NEIGHBOR.

>> THERE YOU GO.

OKAY.

>> I LIVE IN JACKSON HEIGHTS IN QUEENS.

HE IS IN ASTORIA.

>> HE IS YOUR MAYOR.

IT HAPPENED JUST WEEKS AFTER YOUR BOOK WAS PUBLISHED.

HOW DID IT MAKE YOU FEEL?

>> I WAS TALKING ABOUT FEAR IN THE INDIAN CONTEXT.

THAT'S ALSO HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES NOW.

WHEN I WALK OUT INTO MY NEIGHBORHOOD OF JACKSON HEIGHTS, I SENSE THAT FEAR, THE SAME FEAR.

IT HAS CHANGED -- THE LANDSCAPE HAS CHANGED DRASTICALLY IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS OR SO.

WHICH WAS A VERY VIBRANT IMMIGRANT SCENE IS NOW SUDDENLY SOME OF THE STREETS ARE QUITE SILENT.

THAT IS SOMETHING I'M VERY CONSCIOUS OF.

I'M THRILLED ABOUT MAMDANI WINNING THE ELECTION.

VERY HAPPY ABOUT IT.

IT'S DEFINITELY, WHEN I RETURNED THIS LAST TIME, I THINK THE AIR WAS JUST -- IT FELT -- THE AIR SMELLED SWEETER.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU FINALLY, YOU FAMOUSLY DEVOTED -- YOU HAVE SPOKED ABOUT IT.

DEVOTED THE LAST 20 YEARS TO YOUR BOOK AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER THINGS.

YOU HAVEN'T GOT MARRIED.

YOU DON'T HAVE CHILDREN.

YOU LIVE A VERY SOLITARY.

I'M SURE YOU HAVE A MASSIVE SOCIAL CIRCLE AND LOTS OF FRIENDS AND COMMUNITY.

TELL ME WHAT THAT'S LIKE TO DEVOTE 20 YEARS TO THIS PROJECT?

AND NOW THAT IT'S DONE, HOW DO YOU FEEL?

>> I DIDN'T NOTICE THE YEARS PASSING.

I THINK I WAS CREATING MATERIAL.

I WASN'T THINKING SO MUCH EVEN IN TERMS OF A BOOK.

WRITING WAS JUST HOW I WAS LIVING MY LIFE.

I THINK OF WRITING AS A KIND OF SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE.

I WAKE UP IN THE MORNING.

I GO STRAIGHT TO MY DESK.

EVERYTHING I DO THROUGH THE DAY IS SO THAT I CAN WRITE AND THAT I WILL BE ABLE TO PUT ALL MY ENERGY INTO MY WORK.

I HAVE TO SAY, IT FEELS LIKE AN EXTRA PRIVILEGE TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WORK LIKE THAT.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW THAT THAT BABY, THAT PROJECT, THAT WORK IS OUT IN THE OPEN AND NOT REALLY YOURS TO WORK ON ANYMORE?

>> WELL, LIFE FEELS VERY THIN ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS NOVEL, I HAVE TO SAY.

I FEEL MY BRAIN IS TRYING TO FIND A NEW PROJECT TO WORK ON.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, THERE WON'T BE ANOTHER 20-YEAR GAP?

YOU ARE GOING TO WRITE ANOTHER NOVEL?

>> YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS IS -- I REALIZE I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO WRITE SHORTER NOVELS.

IF I WAIT ANOTHER 20 YEARS, I WILL BE 74.

>> THAT'S NOT BAD.

PEOPLE STILL WRITE AT 74.

LOOK, I'M GOING TO LEAVE THOSE READERS WHO HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS TO SUNNY AND SONIA.

IT'S GOT SUCH GREAT CRITICAL ACCLAIM.

WE REALLY ARE HAPPY TO HAVE HAD YOU ON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, MINNESOTA'S SOMALI COMMUNITY IS THE LATEST FOCUS OF DONALD TRUMP'S WAR ON IMMIGRANTS.

LAST NIGHT, THE PRESIDENT LET LOOSE OPENLY USING AN -- >> WHY IS IT WE ONLY TAKE PEOPLE FROM [ BLEEP ] COUNTRY IES?

WHY CAN'T WE HAVE PEOPLE FROM NORWAY, SWEDEN?

LET US HAVE A FEW.

FROM DENMARK.

DO YOU MIND SENDING US?

SEND US SOME NICE PEOPLE.

DO YOU MIND?

WE ALWAYS TAKE PEOPLE FROM SOMALIA, PLACES THAT ARE A DISASTER.

RIGHT?

FILTHY, DIRTY, DISGUSTING, RID WITHIN CRIME.

THE ONLY THING THEY ARE GOOD AT IS GOING AFTER SHIPS.

>> THIS HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS A XENOPHOBIC TIRADE.

IT COMES AMID A CRACKDOWN BY I.C.E.

AGENTS IN MINNESOTA.

DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATOR ZAYNAB MOHAMED CAME TO THE U.S.

AS A CHILD.

SHE'S JOINED BY HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> YOU ARE A STATE SENATOR.

YOU ARE REPRESENTING ALL MINNESOTANS.

YOU ARE REPRESENTING FROM A STATE THAT HAS ABOUT 80,000 SOMALIS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, DURING A NEWS CONFERENCE SAID, QUOTE, I DON'T WANT THEM IN OUR COUNTRY.

WE COULD GO ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND WE'RE GOING TO GO THE WRONG WAY IF WE KEEP TAKING IN GARBAGE INTO OUR COUNTRY.

AS NOT JUST A STATE SENATOR AND REPRESENTATIVE, BUT AS A SOMALI IMMIGRANT, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THIS?

>> I WAS SAD.

INCREDIBLY SAD.

I WASN'T SHOCKED COMING FROM WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING THE LAST YEARS AND SEEING THE PRESIDENT TARGET OUR COMMUNITY OVER THE COURSE OF HIS ADMINISTRATION.

I WASN'T SHOCKED.

I WAS REALLY DEEPLY DISTURBED BY IT.

SAD FOR MY COMMUNITY FOR THEM TO DEAL WITH THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE WORLD TO CALL THEM GARBAGE.

>> THERE'S ALSO AT THE SAME TIME BEEN A PROGRAM CONDUCTED BY THE IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT CALLED METRO SURGE.

WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR SAID, WE ALSO KNOW THERE'S A LARGE ILLEGAL SOMALI COMMUNITY AND A LARGE ILLEGAL ALIEN COMMUNITY THERE.

WE'RE GOING TO ARREST EVERY ILLEGAL AIL THAN WE FIND THERE.

CAN YOU JUST HELP US PUT IN PERSPECTIVE WHAT THE PERCENTAGE, NUMBERS OF UNDOCUMENTED SOMALIS ARE IN MINNESOTA?

>> IT'S NOT MANY.

THE MAJORITY HAVE -- ARE UNITED STATES CITIZENS OR THEY ARE NATURALIZED CITIZENS.

THEY ARE BORN HERE.

THEY ARE EITHER NATURALIZED CITIZENS, OFTEN FOR A SECOND, EVEN THIRD GENERATION AMERICANS.

WE DON'T HAVE MANY FOLKS WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED.

WE HAVE ABOUT 700 PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO ARE ON TEMPORARY STATUS, TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS, WHICH IS -- THEY ARE LEGAL RESIDENTS.

WE DON'T HAVE MANY NUMBERS IN TERMS OF UNDOCUMENTED COMMUNITIES, FOLKS IN MINNESOTA, WHEN IT COMES -- >> EVEN IN THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF SOMALIA IN THE COUNTRY, LET'S SAY THERE'S 400 OF THE TPS RECIPIENTS IN MINNESOTA, THE PRESIDENT SAID ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM THAT HE WAS TERMINATING EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY THE TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS OF TPS PROGRAM FOR SOMALIS IN MINNESOTA.

DO YOU THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL?

>> I THINK THEY WILL TRY.

IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

WHAT THEY THINK IS THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF SOMALIS WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED OR THE MAJORITY IS ON TPS.

THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE SEEING IS THAT THESE FOLKS ARE CITIZENS, BORN HERE, THEY ARE NATURALIZED.

LET'S SAY ALL OF THEM LIVE IN MINNESOTA.

700 OUT OF 80,000 ARE NOT THAT MANY.

THEY ARE FLEEING WAR AND FAMINE.

WE HAVE GRANTED THEM SAFETY.

HE IS TAKING THAT AWAY.

IT SPEAKS TO HIS LEADERSHIP AND THE FACT IT'S BEEN DETRIMENTAL TO THE AMERICAN CITIZENS.

>> CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE SCALE OF THE OPERATION THAT YOU AND MEMBERS OF YOUR COMMUNITY HAVE WITNESSED HERE?

>> I.C.E.

AGENTS CAME HERE IN THE HUNDREDS LAST MONDAY.

IT'S BEEN A WEEK.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT SO FAR THEY HAVE DETAINED 19 PEOPLE OUT OF THAT ONLY FIVE ARE SOMALI.

THEY ARE EVERYWHERE IN OUR COMMUNITY.

THEY ARE NOT JUST TARGETING UNDOCUMENTED COMMUNITIES.

THAT'S WHAT'S WORN TO NOTE HERE.

THEY ARE TARGETING UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

THEY HAVE DETAINED PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN HERE.

WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS THEY'RE GOING UP TO PEOPLE, AS LONG YOU LOOK LIKE AN IMMIGRANT, THEY ARE STOPPING YOU.

WE TEACH PEOPLE TO CARRY THEIR PASSPORT I.D.

THAT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE, BECAUSE WHAT THEY WANTED WAS TO SEE UNDOCUMENTED SOMALIS.

THERE ISN'T.

THEY ARE BEING AGGRESSIVE TOWARDS THE COMMUNITY.

>> THERE WAS A LOCAL NEWS REPORT, I THINK IT'S ON FOX 9 OF A SOMALI WOMAN WHO WAS ARRESTED WHILE RUNNING ERRAND.

>> SHE'S BORN IN MINNESOTA.

RAISED HERE.

HAS BEEN HERE HER ENTIRE LIFE.

SHE WAS RUNNING ERRANDS ON A REGULAR DAY.

TWO CARS WITH I.C.E.

AGENTS ZIP TIED HER.

DETAINED HER FOR 24 HOURS.

IN THAT PROCESS, SHE TOLD HER STORY TO THE NEWS THAT SHE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.

HER FAMILY IS SPEAKING UP.

WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS NOT OPERATING UNDER THE LAW.

THEY ARE NOT HERE TO ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAWS.

THEY ARE HERE TO BE DISRESPECTFUL TO THE COMMUNITY, TO ANTAGONIZE THEM AND TO CREATE FEAR.

THEY ARE DOING THAT.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE IN THIS CASE, DHS TOLD FOX 9 IN MINNEAPOLIS THAT IT COULD NOT COMMENT ON THE INCIDENT WITHOUT FURTHER INFORMATION.

WHEN YOU SEE STORIES LIKE THIS ON THE NEWS OR FROM MEMBERS OF YOUR COMMUNITY, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE OVERALL KIND OF ATMOSPHERE OF HOW THE COMMUNITY FEELS?

>> I MEAN, JUST ACROSS THE STATE, IT DOESN'T FEEL NORMAL, BECAUSE IN A NORMAL GOVERNMENT LOCAL MAYORS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT WOULD KNOW WHAT I.C.E.

IS DOING, WHY THEY ARE THERE, WHO THEY'RE TARGETING, FOR WHAT REASON THEY ARE ARRESTING PEOPLE.

THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

THEY ARE COMING HERE IN A HOSTILE AND INVADING TO TRY TO INVADE THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

I THINK IT IS REALLY SCARY.

WHAT IT IS CREATING FOR US AS MINNESOTANS IS, IT'S MAKING IT CLEAR THAT THESE FOLKS ARE NOT HERE TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS.

THESE FOLKS ARE HERE TO SCARE US, TO CREATE US VERSUS THEM MENTALITY.

PEOPLE ARE UNITING.

THEY ARE PROTECTING THEIR NEIGHBORS WHO ARE CITIZENS, WHO JUST HAPPEN TO BE IMMIGRANTS OR FROM IMMIGRATION BACKGROUND.

>> WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE WHEN MEMBERS OF YOUR MUNITY CALL THEM.

>> CARRY YOUR PASSPORT I.D.

AND CARD.

THEY ARE NOT TARGETING JUST PEOPLE -- INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED.

THEY ARE TARGETING ALL OF US.

I CARRY MY PASSPORT I.D.

I TELL MY MOTHER TO DO SO.

THE CALLS I GET THAT I'M MOST AFRAID FOR ARE MOTHERS WHO DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH WELL OR DON'T SPEAK IT AT ALL, WHO STILL HAVE TO GO TO WORK.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT WORRY ME THE MOST IN TERMS OF INTERACTING WITH THE FOLKS WHO ARE TRYING TO INVADE OUR STATE.

>> THIS RIGHT NOW HAS FOCUSED IN ON THE TWIN CITIES.

SOMALIS HAVE, JUST LIKE THEY LEFT FROM DOWNTOWN TO THE SUBURBS, THEY HAVE LEFT TO RURAL AREAS TO WORK ON FARMS AND BE PARTS OF SMALL TOWNS.

ARE YOU HEARING ANYTHING FROM THERE?

>> THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT.

WE'RE NOT JUST IN THE TWIN CITIES.

WE'RE IN SMALL TOWNS.

PEOPLE IN GREATER MINNESOTA, CENTRAL MINNESOTA, ARE VIGILANT.

THEY ARE WELL AWARE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE TWIN CITIES.

SOME PEOPLE IN CENTRAL MINNESOTA AND SAINT CLOUD HAVE SEEN I.C.E.

AGENTS SHOW UP.

IT'S NOT JUST A TARGET THERE THE TWIN CITIES OR METRO.

THEY ARE TARGETING PEOPLE ACROSS THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

OUR PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HERE FOR AT THIS POINT FIRST, SECOND, THIRD GENERATION.

THEY KNOW THEIR NEIGHBORS.

THEY ARE NOT JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE ENTREPRENEURS.

THEY ARE FARMERS AND DOCTORS AND LAWYERS.

THEIR NEIGHBORS KNOW THAT.

THEY ARE PROTECTING THEM AND STEPPING UP.

FOR MINNESOTANS, IT'S SHOWING US WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A GOOD NEIGHBOR.

I THINK WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE IS HE CREATED THIS COMMUNITY TO BE SO MUCH BETTER THAN WHAT WE EVEN THOUGHT IT WOULD BE.

>> WHAT HAS BEEN THE RESPONSE OF LEADERSHIP THROUGHOUT THE STATE?

IN THE CITY, THE MAYOR HAD SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT BARRED I.C.E.

FROM USING CITY-OWNED SPACES LIKE PARKING LOTS FOR STAGING AREAS.

WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE CITY AND THE STATE?

>> PEOPLE ARE STEPPING UP.

OUR GOVERNOR STEPPED UP AND HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY ARE HERE TO INVADE OUR STATE.

THEY ARE BEING HOSTILE TOWARDS CITIZENS.

MOST OF OUR JURISDICTIONS ARE NOT COMPLYING, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT EVEN TELLING THEM.

THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN COMPLYING WITH THEM.

I MENTIONED THIS EARLIER, IN A NORMAL GOVERNMENT, WHEN I.C.E.

AGENTS ARE THERE TOWN, THEY TALK TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE MAYORS AND LET THEM KNOW WHO THEY ARE ARRESTING AND WHY.

THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

THEY ARE SHOWING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF A MONDAY WITH JUST A PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT, WITHOUT ANY HEADS UP TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

IT'S BEEN -- FOR OUR LEADERS, THEY ARE STEPPING UP.

THEY ARE ALSO HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE.

NUMBER OF ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE STATE ARE ALSO DOING TRAININGS FOR PEOPLE SO THAT THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO IF I.C.E.

AGENTS DO INTERACT WITH THEM.

>> THERE WAS A LONG RUNNING CIVIL WAR IN SOMALIA THAT LED TO FLEEING OF SO MANY PEOPLE FROM THAT COUNTRY TO ALL OVER WORLD, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT WOULD SOMALIS BE RETURNING TO IF THEY WERE DEPORTED OR IF THEY WERE -- IF THEY HAD THIS TEMPORARY PROTECTION STATUS REVOKED?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, THE COUNTRY IS STILL GOING THROUGH AN UNREST AND CIVIL WAR.

THERE IS FAMINE ALSO HAPPENING.

WE KNOW PEOPLE ARE STILL LIVING IN REFUGEE CAMPS.

FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE, LIKE MYSELF, WHO HAVE BEEN HERE SINCE I WAS 8 YEARS OLD, TO GO BACK TO A HOME I HAVEN'T KNOWN SINCE I WAS A CHILD, JUST SEEMS S -- T HAVE BEEN HERE FOR GENERATIONS.

THAT'S SORT OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEND AMERICANS TO COUNTRIES THAT THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN TO.

>> YOUR FAMILY STORY IS SOMEWHAT EMBLEMATIC OF SO MANY SOMALIS WHO CAME HERE.

WHY DID THEY COME?

WHAT'S YOUR FAMILY'S CONTRIBUTION BEEN LIKE OVER THE GENERATIONS?

>> YEAH.

MY FAMILY IS THE EPITOME OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.

WHY SO MANY PEOPLE IN MY COMMUNITY CAME HERE, WE CAME HERE WHEN I WAS 8.

MY FAMILY WAS OBVIOUSLY WANTING TO LEAVE THE WAR.

AMERICANS HAVE TAKEN US IN.

IN RETURN, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY SIBLINGS GRADUATED COLLEGE, CONTRIBUTING IN THEIR OWN WAY.

WE HAVE NURSES AND PEOPLE WHO WORK IN DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES.

PEOPLE WHO RAN FOR OFFICE WHEN I WAS 24 YEARS OLD.

BECAME THE YOUNGEST MEMBER AND ONE OF THE FIRST THREE BLACK WOMEN.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME NOT JUST AS A SOMALI WOMAN BUT AS AN AMERICAN I GIVE BACK TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAD MY BACK, WHO HAVE GIVEN ME A HOME.

THIS IS MY HOME.

>> I WONDERED, IN SOME OF THE REMARKS THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE, HE TARGETED ILHAN OMAR, WHO YOU KNOW IS IT A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS.

SHE'S BEEN THE TARGET OF HIS ATTACKS.

ARE YOU SEEING AN INCREASE IN ANY SORTS OF THREATS OR POLITICAL VIOLENCE AGAINST YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ANY TIME THE PRESIDENT SPEWS WHAT HE DID, AS HE DID LAST WEEK AND CALLS THE COMMUNITY GARBAGE AND PAINTS A BRUSH OVER US, ATTACKS AGAINST OUR LEADERS LIKE MYSELF INCREASE.

WE HAVE BEEN GETTING DEATH THREATS.

PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO GO TO THEIR STORES OR TO GO -- OR EVEN IF THEY LIVE IN PARTS WHERE THERE AREN'T A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE US, THEY ARE BEING MORE VIGILANT.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT INCITES.

WE LIVED THROUGH JUNE 14th IN MINNESOTA WHERE MY LEADER, MINNESOTA LEADER HOUSE AND HER HUSBAND WERE ASSASSINATED.

MY COLLEAGUE AND HIS WIFE HAD AN ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION ON THEM.

I WAS ON THAT LIST.

I'M AFRAID FOR MY COMMUNITY.

I'M AFRAID FOR MYSELF.

WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO STEP UP AND SPEAK UP AGAINST THE RHETORIC AND SAY, WE DESERVE TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT'S SAFE WHERE LEADERS DON'T INCITE VIOLENCE AGAINST US.

THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING.

I WOULD HAVE HOPED THAT JUNE 14th WAS A LESSON TO OUR LEADERS, BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

IT SEEMS NOT TO BE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS KEYED IN ON -- SEVERAL CONSERVATIVES IN THE STATE AS WELL HAVE KEYED IN ON IS A SERIES OF FRAUD CASES THAT HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED AND PROSECUTED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

THERE HAVE BEEN STATE PROGRAMS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.

A NUMBER OF SOMALIS HAVE BEEN INDICTED AND CHARGED.

I GUESS YOUR REACTION TO THE PRESIDENT'S COMMENTS ON THE CASE?

HE SAYS SOMALIANS RIPPED OFF THE STATE FOR BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

EVERY YEAR, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND THEY CONTRIBUTE NOTHING.

>> FIST OF ALL, THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

RIGHT?

IN TERMS OF THE FRAUD, FRAUD HURTS EVERYONE.

FRAUD HURTS TAXPAYERS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE GETTING -- RECEIVING THE SERVICES.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS, WE DON'T DO THIS TO OTHER COMMUNITIES.

THIS YEAR THERE WAS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WERE LINKED TO A RUSSIAN GANG WHO STOLE $10 BILLION, WHO SCHEMED OVER $10 BILLION IN FRAUD.

WE DON'T SAY, IS THAT INDICATIVE OF THE ENTIRE RUSSIAN COMMUNITY, BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF OUR ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

THEY ARE 78 PEOPLE.

THEY ARE CRIMINALS.

THAT IS HOW WE SHOULD BE SPEAKING OF THEM.

WE SHOULD NOT BE SAYING THAT THIS IS AN INDICATIVE OF THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

THAT IS WHERE THE RHETORIC STARTS AND WHERE IT CREATES POLITICAL VIOLENCE FOR PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE MYSELF.

>> ARE THESE ISSUES BEING COLLUDED OR ARE THEY KEEPING THEM APART?

THERE'S ONE WE CAN BE AGAINST FRAUD AND SUPPORT SOMALI COMMUNITIES?

OR IS THIS PAINTING THE BRUSH ACROSS THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY?

>> RIGHT WING PODCASTERS AND SOCIAL MEDIA AND REPUBLICANS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND THE MINNESOTA REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN IN LOCKSTEP AND BLAMING THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY FOR THE ACTIONS OF A FEW.

WHAT I WILL TELL YOU IS, THESE FOLKS ARE PEOPLE, INDIVIDUALS IN OUR COMMUNITY WHO HAVE SPOKEN UP AGAINST, LEADERS LIKE MYSELF HAVE SAID, THOSE PEOPLE ARE CRIMINALS.

THEY DON'T REPRESENT A SINGLE IDENTITY.

I'M DOING MY PART IN GETTING THE CORRECT MESSAGE ACROSS, WHICH IS SOMALI PEOPLE CONTRIBUTE TO THE COMMUNITY OVERWHELMINGLY.

THEY ARE TAXPAYERS.

THEY ARE HURT BY THIS -- BY THE CRIMINALS.

THEY ARE CRIMINALS.

THAT'S HOW WE ARE LABELING THEM.

>> I WONDER HOW MUCH OF THIS DO YOU THINK IS CONNECTED TO WHAT'S HAPPENING LIKE IN MINNESOTA POLITICS?

YOU ARE ENTERING A RE-ELECTION YEAR.

YOU ARE DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED.

TIM WALTZ -- THE PRESIDENT IS NOT A FAN OF HIM.

VICE VERSA.

KACY MEGHAN WHO USED TO WORK AT THE MINNESOTA AG'S, A QUOTE SAYS, THERE'S A PERCEPTION THAT FORCEFULLY TACKLING THIS ISSUE MIGHT CAUSE POLITICAL BACKLASH AMONG THE SOMALI COMMUNITY, WHICH IS A CORE VOTING BLOCK.

HOW MUCH OF THAT IS IT PLAYING INTO THE PRESIDENT'S RADAR AND WHY HE PUTS IT ON THE COUNTRY'S?

>> THAT COULD BE A PART OF IT.

HE WANTS TO DE-ENFRANCHISE THE COMMUNITY.

IF HE CAN CREATE -- IF HE CAN FABRICATE STORIES TO CREATE US VERSUS THEM AND MAKE THE COMMUNITY FEEL ALONE AND FEEL LIKE NO LEADERS HAVE THEIR BACKS, THAT PLAYS TO EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS, HE WANTS TO DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

WHAT WE SEE IN MINNESOTA IS OUR LEADERS AND PARTICULARLY OUR DEMOCRATIC LEADERS ARE STEPPING UP.

WE ARE ALSO SEEING SOME REPUBLICAN LEADERS STEP UP.

EARLIER WHEN HE SAID THAT, I SENT A LETTER TO ALL THE LEADERS IN THE MINNESOTA HOUSE INSTEAD OF ASKING THEM TO CONDEMN -- THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE WAS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, SEEKING ENDORSEMENT OF DONALD TRUMP HAS NOT CONDEMNED IT.

HER COLLEAGUE IN THE MINNESOTA SENATE, WHO IS A COLLEAGUE OF MINE, A REPUBLICAN, DID CONDEMN.

SENT A LETTER TO THE PRESIDENT AND SAID, YOU SHOULD MEET SOMALI PEOPLE.

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT THEM IS HEINOUS.

IT'S WRONG.

IT'S VILE.

IT'S NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SOMALI CITIZENS AND FRIENDS THAT I HAVE.

THAT'S A REPUBLICAN LEADER WHO IS STEPPING UP.

A MAJORITY ARE IN LOCKSTEP WITH WASHINGTON, AFRAID OF DONALD TRUMP CALLING THEM OUT OR MAKING A POST ON TRUTH SOCIAL AND SAYING DON'T SUPPORT LISA.

WE SEE LEADERS NOT DO THEIR PART.

WE SEE FEW OF THEM DO IT.

IT'S SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO NOTE.

ELECTIONS ARE NEXT YEAR.

IT'S CERTAINLY PLAYING A ROLE.

REPUBLICANS WANT TO TAKE CONTROL OF MINNESOTA.

I THINK WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

>> MINNESOTA SENATOR ZAYNAB MOHAMED, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

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