>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, TENURE FOR PULITZER PRIZE WINNER NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES IS BACK ON THE TABLE AT UNC-CHAPEL HILL.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT HER ACCLAIMED 1619 PROJECT, CRITICAL RACE THEORY, AND THE CHALLENGES SHE AND OTHER BLACK WOMEN FACE WHEN PURSURING POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP.

STAY WITH US.

♪ >> WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FOR MY DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

BACK IN APRIL THE UNC HUSSMAN SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM AND MEDIA PROUDLY ANNOUNCED THE APPOINTMENT OF PULITZER PRIZE WINNING INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES AS THE KNIGHT CHAIR IN RACE AND INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM.

THE LAUDED CAREER WORK OF HANNAH-JONES NO DOUBT HELPED QUALIFY HER FOR THE DISTINGUISHED POSITION, BUT ALSO HAS DRAWN CRITICISM FROM CONSERVATIVE GROUPS.

NOW THE NATURE OF THE POSITION IS IN QUESTION AND GROUPS NATIONWIDE ARE NOT HAPPY.

HERE TO DISCUSS IT WITH US, I'D LIKE TO WELCOME DOCTOR TREVY MCDONALD DIRECTOR OF DIVERSITY EQUITY AND INCLUSION AT THE HUSSMAN SCHOOL I WILL NOTE THAT PBS NORTH CAROLINA IS LICENSED TO THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA SYSTEM.

DOCTOR MCDONALD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

I WANT TO OPEN UP BY JUST HAVING YOU TO EXPLAIN THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNC JOURNALISM HUSSMAN SCHOOL AND FACULTY AND WHERE D E I FITS WITHIN THAT.

>> WELL, ABSOLUTELY FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME DEBORAH.

THE HUSSMAN SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM AND MEDIA IS ONE OF THE PROFESSIONAL SCHOOLS AT UNC CHAPEL HILL.

LIKE OTHER TOP JOURNALISM SCHOOLS AND PROGRAMS WE ARE ACCREDITED BY THE ACCREDITING COUNCIL FOR EDUCATION IN JOURNALISM AND MASS COMMUNICATIONS KNOWN AS ACEJMC ACEJMC HAS 9 ACCREDITING STANDARDS.

STANDARD NUMBER 3 IS DIVERSITY.

AND STANDARD NUMBER 4 PERTAINS TO FACULTY AND STAFF.

BECAUSE WE ARE A PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL WE HAVE TO HAVE A BALANCE OF FACULTY FROM RESEARCH BACKGROUNDS AND THOSE ARE PHD'S TO DO TRADITIONAL SCHOLARLY RESEARCH AS WELL AS PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUNDS.

JOURNALISTS, PHOTO JOURNALISTS, PUBLIC RELATIONS PRACTITIONERS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BACKGROUND IN ADVERTISING CREATIVE AS WELL AS EXECUTIVE.

OUR GOAL IS TO TRAIN STUDENTS TO IGNITE THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION.

WE'RE TRAINING FUTURE JOURNALIST AND STRATEGIC COMMUNICATORS, AND WHO BETTER TO TRAIN THEM THAN A FACULTY WITH A MIX OF THE RESEARCH BACKGROUND AND THE PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND.

>> CERTAINLY, AND CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE KNIGHT CHAIR POSITION AND THE ROLE OF TENURE IN IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY, SO THE KNIGHT CHAIR POSITION IS ENDOWED BY SUPPORT FROM THE KNIGHT FOUNDATION AND THE PURPOSE OF IT IS TO IDENTIFY LEADING JOURNALISTS FOR THESE PROFESSORSHIPS AT TOP UNIVERSITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THESE PROFESSORS COME IN AND TEACH INNOVATIVE CLASSES AS WELL AS DEVELOP PROJECTS AND PROGRAMS THAT ADVANCE JOURNALISM AND MEDIA.

>> AND WE KNOW THAT THIS POSITION REQUIRES A VERY RIGOROUS PROCESS.

ACTUALLY OBTAINING TENURE AND I THINK WHAT'S BEEN IN QUESTION IS THE OPTION TO INCLUDE TENURE IN THIS, AND YOU YOURSELF KNOW HOW RIGOROUS THAT PROCESS IS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ROLE OF TENURE IN THIS AND AND WHAT THAT TENURE OFFERS.

WHY THAT'S SO IMPORTANT?

>> ABSOLUTELY SO LET ME FIRST STATE THAT NICOLE IS THE 5TH KNIGHT CHAIR THAT WE'VE HAD IN THE SCHOOL.

WE'VE HAD 4 OTHER KNIGHT CHAIRS STARTING IN 1986 WITH BOB LAUTERBORN WHO CAME FROM INDUSTRY AND DID NOT HAVE PRIOR ACADEMIC BACKGROUND.

PHIL MEYER WAS THE SECOND EVEN A PROFESSOR AT THE SCHOOL AND THEN PENNY MUSE ABERNATHY HAS BEEN AN EXECUTIVE ON THE BUSINESS SIDE OF JOURNALISM WITH THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND NEW YORK TIMES AND JOANN SCIARRINO.

NEITHER OF THEM HAD EXTENSIVE ACADEMIC BACKGROUND PRIOR.

THEY WERE ALL APPOINTED AS TENURED FULL PROFESSORS.

WE'VE ALSO HAD OTHER FACULTY.

TOM LYNDEN WHO HEADS OUR MEDICAL JOURNALISM PROGRAM AND OUR DEAN WHO WERE APPOINTED AS TENURED, FULL PROFESSORS WITHOUT PRIOR ACADEMIC BACKGROUND.

SO WITH REGARDS TO THE TENURE PROCESS, THE CANDIDATE OR THE FACULTY MEMBER PRODUCES A PACKET OF THEIR WORK OF THEIR SCHOLARSHIP OF THEIR SERVICE AND THEY SUBMITTED TO THE SCHOOL.

THEN IT IS REVIEWED BY EXTERNAL REVIEWERS, SO THERE CAN BE ANYWHERE FROM 4 TO 7 LETTERS FROM FULL PROFESSORS AT PEER INSTITUTIONS AND PROGRAMS WHO REVIEW VERY RIGOROUSLY THE PACKAGE AND MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.

THOSE LETTERS COME BACK TO THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL'S PROMOTION AND TENURE COMMITTEE, THEY MAKE A RECOMMENDATION FULL FACULTY VOTES AND THEN IT GOES UP TO THE UNIVERSITY COMMITTEE.

SO THERE HAVE BEEN JUST ALREADY SEVERAL EXTENSIVE REVIEWS.

>> PLEASE CONTINUE.

AND THEN THE PROVOST'S HAS TO SUBMIT TO THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BECAUSE ALL TENURE CASES HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES AS WELL AS THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS.

>> AND IS THAT WHERE THE ISSUE BEGAN?

>> THAT'S WHERE THE ISSUE BEGAN BECAUSE OUR FACULTY FULLY SUPPORT IT, OUR FULL PROFESSORS SUPPORTED IT, IN ORDER FOR HER PACKAGE TO BE MOVED TO THE UNIVERSITY COMMITTEE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS AS A REPRESENTATIVE, CERTAINLY IN D E I WHAT IS YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS STORY?

>> NUMBER ONE, THIS IS VERY CLEARLY AN EQUITY ISSUE, THIS IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST.

AND THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS NUMBER ONE NICOLE IS A BLACK WOMAN, I'M JUST BEING ENTIRELY HONEST OUR PREVIOUS KNIGHT CHAIRS HAVE ALL BEEN WHITE.

THERE'S NOT BEEN AN ISSUE WITH REGARDS TO THIS AND THEN ALSO THE WORK THAT SHE DOES.

NIKOLE HAS BUILT IN HER ENTIRE CAREER ON LOOKING AT RACIAL INEQUITY.

SHE WAS A REPORTER FOR THE RALEIGH NEWS AND OBSERVER, SHE LOOKED AT SCHOOL EQUITY AND THE RACIAL ACHIEVEMENT GAP IN DURHAM PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SHE WORKED FOR PRO PUBLICA WHERE SHE COVERS CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUES, FAIR HOUSING AND SCHOOL SEGREGATION AND DISCRIMINATION AND SHE'S NOW WITH THE NEW YORK TIMES AND SHE'S WON NUMEROUS AWARDS.

>> ABSOLUTELY AND CERTAINLY, IT'S CERTAINLY ALMOST GOES WITHOUT SAYING HER WORK AND AND FOUNDING OF THE 1619 PROJECT.

AND THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO BE SAID ABOUT THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT IT.

BUT FOR NOW I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME DOCTOR TREVY MCDONALD FOR COMING IN.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> LET'S LOOK FURTHER INTO THE PROJECT THAT HAS GENERATED SO MUCH ANGST AMONG TEACHERS, POLITICIANS, JOURNALISTS AND HISTORIANS.

THAT IS THE 1619 PROJECT AND CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

I'D LIKE TO WELCOME DOCTOR MARK ANTHONY NEAL CHAIR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AFRICAN AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES AT DUKE UNIVERSITY, AND LA'MESHIA WHITTINGTON WITH ADVANCE CAROLINA.

SO PLEASED TO HAVE BOTH OF YOU HERE FOR THIS CONVERSATION AND DOCTOR NEAL GOING TO START WITH YOU.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE 1619 PROJECT AND ITS CREDIBILITY AS A RESOURCE FOR SCHOLARS AND EDUCATORS?

>> IT WAS ABSOLUTELY AN INTERVENTION.

A WAY TO RE-CENTER OUR CONVERSATION ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY BY PLACING THE EXPERIENCE OF BLACK FOLKS AND SLAVERY AT THE CENTER OF THAT.

WHAT WAS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT WAS THAT THIS WAS A JOURNALISTIC PROJECT, SO IT HARKS BACK TO THE LEGACY OF BLACK JOURNALISTS OVER THE LAST A FEW CENTURIES HAVE WHO HAVE BEEN DOING JOURNALISM, THEY DID THAT INTERVENTION BEFORE THERE WAS A STRUCTURE LIKE THE ACADEMY THAT BLACKS COLLEGE COULD BELONG TO SO IT FIT INTO A BROADER TRADITION OF BLACK JOURNALISTS.

YOU THINK ABOUT FOLKS LIKE IDA B. WELLS-BARNETT AND EVEN FURTHER BACK WHO TRIED TO TELL A DIFFERENT STORY, A MORE TRUTHFUL STORY AS IT REFLECTED THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN THIS COUNTRY AND THAT'S WHAT THE 1619 PROJECT IS.

IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT IT WAS DONE BY THE NEW YORK TIMES AND IT WAS ACCESSIBLE IN THE WAY THAT IT WAS WRITTEN IN WAYS THAT WERE VERY DIFFERENT THAN READING SAY A 700 PAGE HISTORICAL NARRATIVE.

>> SO IS THAT THE KEY IN THE FACT THAT THIS WAS A JOURNALISTIC WORK THAT IT WAS ACCESSIBLE OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE THAT COMPARES IT TO SAY A HISTORICAL WORK?

>> NO I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT REALLY IS DOING HISTORY FOR THE MASSES TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM THE IVORY TOWER TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE AND AVAILABLE TO EVERY DAY FOLKS THAT IN FACT I THINK WAS THE BRILLIANCE OF THE PROJECT.

>> THANK YOU AND LA'MESHIA, CAN YOU JUST SHARE WHAT DO YOU THINK SOME OF THE POLITICAL CONCERNS AROUND THE 1619 PROJECT ARE?

>> SO FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS AS WE ALL NOTICED, YOU KNOW THE ELEVATIONS NOT FAR FROM COMMUNITY AROUND STATE-SANCTIONED VIOLENCE, THE END POLICE BRUTALITY OF THE TEARING DOWN AND DISMANTLING OF CONFEDERATE STATUES AND OFTENTIMES TO THE INACCURATE HISTORICAL DEPICTIONS THAT SHROUD THOSE STATUES HAS AGAIN COME FROM THE COMMUNITY, AND SO THE POLITICAL RESPONSE THIS HAPPENING IS REALLY PUNISHING THAT COMMUNITY FOR THOSE OUTCRIES AND PUNISHING LOCAL ELECTIVES FOR RESPONDING TO COMMUNITY SAYING OK WE NEED TO RE IMAGINE NOT ONLY OUR FUNDING, BUT ALSO EDUCATION AND HOW WE'RE SAYING WHAT IS THE TRUE HISTORICAL DEPICTION OF RACIAL VIOLENCE IN AMERICA, AND SO THERE ARE BILLS - AND REALLY LET'S BACK IT UP - DONALD TRUMP IN HIS FINAL FEW MONTHS IN OFFICE HE STATED HE WOULD BAN STATES FROM TEACHING THE 1619 PROJECT AND CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

HE ACCUSED HISTORY EDUCATORS OF TEACHING CHILDREN TO HATE THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND CONVENED THE 1776 COMMISSION TO PROMOTE PATRIOTIC EDUCATION.

THIS DOG WHISTLE IS WHAT ALLOWED THE IMPETUS FOR FOUR STATES TO NOW HAVE PASSED LAWS BANNING ITS SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES FROM TALKING ABOUT DIVISIVE CONCEPTS.

THAT CENSORSHIP.

THAT'S THE DISMANTLING OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND NORTH CAROLINA IS FOLLOWING SUIT.

WE HAVE HOUSE BILL 3.24 THAT IS TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING.

IF IT IS PASSED INTO LAW AND THAT'S STOPPING CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND ONE THING ELSE, STEP BACK, CRITICAL RACE THEORY WAS FOUND IN 1970, ESTABLISHED BY PROFESSOR ROY BROOKS AND OTHER BLACK ACADEMIC SCHOLARS.

THIS IS NOT A NEW THEORY SO THE EXCUSE THAT THIS IS OF COURSE 1619'S UNFOUNDED OR YOU KNOW NOT GROUNDED IN EDUCATION, NO.

IT'S BEEN FOUND SINCE 1970 AND THE IMPETUS FOR THE 1619 PROJECT IS GIVING LIKE, AS THE DOCTOR ALREADY SAID LIFE AND VITALITY TO A CURRICULUM THAT HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE FOR YEARS AND A SUPPRESSION TO STOP THAT CURRICULUM.

>> I THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT FACT OUT.

CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS NOT BRAND NEW SO THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP THE 1619 PROJECT HAS INDEED HOWEVER BEEN CONTROVERSIAL EVEN AMONG AT ACADEMICS DOCTOR NEAL CAN YOU SHARE WITH SOME OF THE SCRUTINY AND CONCERNS OR CRITICISMS HAVE BEEN?

>> YOU KNOW I DON'T WANT TO DISMISS YOU KNOW THESE DEBATES, BUT YOU KNOW IF YOU PUT 5 HISTORIANS IN THE ROOM, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A DISAGREEMENT ABOUT DETAILS AND WE SHOULDN'T LET THOSE REALLY SUBSTANTIVE IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE IMPORTANT CRITICAL DISCUSSIONS, OVERSHADOW THE IMPORTANCE OF THE PROJECT.

GREAT HISTORIANS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE QUIBBLES THE WAY ANOTHER HISTORIAN INTERPRETS PARTICULAR HISTORIES.

BUT AGAIN THE OVERALL PROJECT TO RE-CENTER THE GAZE ON THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE OF BLACK FOLKS AND ANTI-BLACK VIOLENCE AND SLAVERY IS A CRITICALLY IMPORTANT ASPECT TO THIS.

THINK OF 1619 AS A PORTAL REALLY INTO THESE BROADER AND DEEPER INTELLECTUAL ARGUMENTS.

>> I LIKE THAT, JUST SEEING THAT SORT OF AS A CENTRAL PLACE FROM WHICH TO TO START UNDERSTANDING AND THE CONVERSATION.

THERE'S JUST BEEN A LOT OF FEAR AROUND WHAT THIS PROJECT IS IT'S A SERIES OF ESSAYS BASED ON RESEARCH BASED ON TRUE STORIES AND ACCOUNTS AND AND PEOPLE NEED TO TO SEE IT TO READ IT.

TO LISTEN TO IT.

IT'S A PROJECT AND YOU KNOW THAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY HAS GAINED THIS NOTORIETY.

THIS NEGATIVE CONNOTATION.

BUT DOCTOR NEAL, WHAT CAN YOU SHARE ABOUT WHAT IT REALLY IS DOING WHAT IT MEANS TO EXERCISE CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND HOW THAT COULD BENEFIT ANYONE ON EITHER SIDE OF AMERICAN HISTORY?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS A THING, WHAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY HAS DONE MOST BRILLIANTLY IS THIS IDEA OF THAT FOR INSTANCE, THE LAW IS NOT OBJECTIVE.

THAT IT MAKES PARTICULAR ANALYSIS BASED ON GENDER, SEXUALITY, RACE, AND WHAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY HAS DONE IS RAISE STEP THE ANTE, TO UNDERSTAND THE WAYS THAT THINGS THAT WE THINK OF AS OBJECTIVE ACTUALLY HAVE RACIALIZED COMPONENTS.

AND WHAT'S SO IRONIC ABOUT THIS MORNING.

THE WAYS THAT FOLKS ARE REACTING TO IT, YOU KNOW MOST OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE PUT OUT THERE TO TALK ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY ARE FOLKS WHO DON'T HAVE ANY INTELLECTUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.

SOME LIKE KIMBERLY CRENSHAW IS STILL WALKING THE EARTH DEVON CARBADO IS STILL WALKING THE EARTH.

YOU CAN SIT DOWN, YOU KNOW OVER THE WEEKEND AND READ DERRICK BELL'S FACES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE WELL, YOU KNOW AS ONE OF THE MOST ACCESSIBLE VERSIONS OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

SO YOU KNOW WHAT WE SEE IS THAT CLEARLY THERE ARE NOW A SAYS THAT ARE BEING MADE NOW THAT IS STRIKING A CHORD THAT MASSES OF FOLKS HAVE ACCESS TO.

THE POWERS THAT BE ARE REACTING TO THOSE PRESSURES.

>> LA'MESHIA, CONSIDERING, YOU KNOW CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE BIG ARGUMENTS THAT I'VE HEARD AGAINST THIS IS THAT YOU KNOW IT'S ANTI AMERICAN TO SPEAK OF AMERICA IN TERMS THAT ARE NEGATIVE OR THAT'S THAT SPEAK TO SOME OF THE TROUBLES THAT WE'VE HAD IS IT ANTI AMERICAN TO SHARE THE HISTORY?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE ARE COMING FROM WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THE ANTI-AMERICAN ASPECT OF 1619 OR CRITICAL RACE THEORY?

>> LET'S REALLY BREAK DOWN THE DEFINITION OF AMERICAN FOR SOME FOLKS.

SOME FOLKS STILL DON'T BELIEVE THAT BLACK AMERICANS ARE AMERICAN.

SO IT DOES GO AGAINST THEIR NOTION.

AND SO WE EVEN SEE THIS AS -- LET'S BE -- TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION DEB, NO, IT'S NOT UNAMERICAN.

WE HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO SOCIETY IN A WAY IN WHICH EVEN 1850 3 MILLION ENSLAVED PEOPLE WERE WORTH 3 BILLION DOLLARS TO THE U.S. ECONOMY AND CREATE THE MOST MILLIONAIRES IN THE U.S. SOUTH.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE BASELINE AND WE BUILT THIS COUNTRY THAT'S NOT A IDEOLOGY THAT'S AN ECONOMIC FACT, AND WE CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

AND STILL WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ANTI-AMERICAN ANTI AMERICAN TO SUPPRESS THE TRUE HISTORY, AND NARRATIVE OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY, BUILT THIS COUNTRY IN ADDITION TO BEING HERE.

CIVIL RIGHTS, NO LAWS, AND EVEN VOTING RIGHTS LAWS IN THE PAST HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THE TRAUMA AND THE EXPLOITATION OF BLACK BODIES, BUT ALSO OUR PROTEST THAT LED TO THOSE LIBERATIONS SO IT IS OUR WORK AND OUR TRAUMA THAT HAS CREATED OTHER INROADS FOR OTHER COMMUNITIES AND IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES MOVING HERE TO HAVE FREEDOM OF CIVIL RIGHTS TO ACCESS THE AMERICAN DREAM.

SO NO.

NOT AN AMERICAN ALL.

>> WELL CERTAINLY CRITICAL RACE THEORY AS I HAVE SEEN IT ACTUALLY HAS BEEN MISUSED IN SOME WAYS SO.

DOCTOR NEAL, YOU KNOW I THINK THAT WHAT PEOPLE ARE AFRAID IS WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD PEOPLE MISUSING CRITICAL RACE THEORY HAS A DIVERSITY EQUITY AND INCLUSION KIND OF TRAINING TOOL.

BUT HOW SHOULD INDEED BE USED BY TEACHERS BY ANYONE?

>> AGAIN TO PROVIDE A DIFFERENT LENS.

A MORE BALANCED LENS ON HOW RACE FUNCTIONS IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

CRITICAL RACE THEORY FILLS THE GAP OF KNOWLEDGE AND INFORMATION THAT EXISTS PARTICULARLY IN OUR K THROUGH 12 SYSTEM EVEN IN HIGHER ED.

AND THAT'S WHY CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS SO IMPORTANT AT THIS POINT TIME AND IT'S THE REASON WHY FOLKS ARE PUSHING BACK.

BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF THOSE GAPS BEING FILLED IN.

>> WHILE NEGOTIATIONS CONTINUE ON THE APPOINTMENT OF NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES AT UNC, IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK, KAREEN JEAN PIERRE STEPPED TO THE PODIUM TO LEAD A WHITE HOUSE PRESS BRIEFING, BECOMING THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN IN DECADES AND FIRST OPENLY GAY SPOKESWOMAN EVER TO DO SO.

THIS ALSO JUST AFTER KRISTEN CLARKE WAS CONFIRMED CIVIL RIGHTS CHIEF OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO FILL THIS ROLE.

SO WE'RE SEEING GREATER REPRESENTATION OF BLACK WOMEN AT THE TOP.

WHAT HAS IT TAKEN TO GET THERE AND WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO STAY?

JOINING THE CONVERSATION IS DOCTOR SHANTE WILLIAMS, CEO OF BLACK PEARL GLOBAL INVESTMENTS AND AUTHOR OF BLACK ANGELS, THE WEALTH EDITION.

WE'RE SO GLAD TO HAVE YOU JOINING US.

DOCTOR WILLIAMS, YOU IN YOUR WORK WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WHAT NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES IS FACING, HOW DOES THAT COMPARE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE WITNESSED AND EXPERIENCED AS A CEO AND AS AN EXECUTIVE AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN IN LEADERSHIP?

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

HER EXPERIENCES I THINK THE EXPERIENCE OF LOTS OF BLACK WOMEN WHO HAVE MADE IT TO THE TOP OF AN INDUSTRY OR ORGANIZATION, IT'S NEVER ENOUGH.

YOU KNOW THE ACCOLADES, THE PULITZER PRIZE, THE EDUCATION THE EXPERIENCE, IT'S DISCOUNTED.

IT'S JUST NEVER ENOUGH TO REALLY MEASURE UP TO OTHER FOLKS AND SO I'VE EXPERIENCED THAT I HAVE A DOCTORATE AND I'VE BEEN TOLD TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL TO GET EXTRA TRAINING, SO I'VE EXPERIENCED IT AND ITS DISCOUNTED AND IT'S SICKENING TO SEE THE TALENT OF BEING DISCOUNTED IN THAT WAY.

>> AND HOW DOES THAT IMPACT YOU PERSONALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY JUST TO KIND OF HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND CONSIDER THAT YOU'RE ALWAYS TRYING TO DO BETTER OR NEED TO DO BETTER OR BE TWICE AS GOOD.

>> I THINK EARLY ON THE BEST ADVICE I EVER GOT WAS THEY'RE JUST AS STUPID AS YOU ARE, WHICH SOUNDS LIKE A TERRIBLE, A TERRIBLE THING TO SAY TO SOMEBODY, BUT IT CAME FROM AN ADVISER AND MENTOR THAT REALLY SAID YOU GOT TO SHAKE LOOSE ALL OF THAT EXPECTATION, OR WHATEVER OTHER PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU THAT YOU YOU'RE NOT ENOUGH, YOU'RE NOT MEASURING UP.

I EVEN I DISLIKE THE NOTION OF IMPOSTER SYNDROME AT THIS POINT.

NO, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROJECTING THAT ON TO ME, SO IT HAS AFFECTED ME LESS OVER TIME, BUT IT WAS TIRING.

I LOVE THE STATEMENT WE TIRED, BLACK WOMEN ARE TIRED OF LITERALLY HAVING TO SHOULDER THAT BURDEN OUTPERFORM AND STILL BE UNDERPAID.

SO YOU KNOW FOR ME IT'S CONTINUING TO SHAKE IT OFF I'M SURE SHE SHAKING IT OFF I READ THIS MORNING THAT SHE'S FIGHTING.

AND THAT'S THE SAME FIGHT THAT ALL OF US ARE ON.

>> LA'MESHIA I WANT TO GET YOU IN HERE BECAUSE YOU WORK IN ACADEMIA, BUT ALSO A NONPROFIT IS IT DIFFERENT IN THE NONPROFIT SPACE?

>> WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT FOR A MOMENT, HISTORICALLY.

SO HISTORICALLY, NONPROFITS WERE CREATED AS A WAY TO HIDE THE WEALTH OF YOU KNOW THE WHITE ONE PERCENTERS AT THE GREAT DEPRESSION ERA.

IT SAYS CHARITY BUT REALLY WASN'T CHARITY FOR THE PEOPLE, IT WAS CHARITY FOR WEALTHY LANDOWNERS AND THE ONE PERCENTERS.

IF WE TALK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF NON PROFIT CORPORATION, I LOVE MY ORGANIZATION, IT'S ALL BLACK ORGANIZATION, WE SPECIALIZE IN BUILDING BLACK ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL POWER.

THAT HAS TAKEN A LOT OF LABOR, A LOT OF LOVE, AND A LOT OF JUST LIKE YOU KNOW LONG HOURS AS THE DOCTOR ALREADY MENTIONED.

BUT WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE OF BACKING.

THERE ARE STILL MISREPRESENTATIONS OF MANY OF OUR PEOPLE IN THE HIERARCHIES OF POWER STRUCTURES OF NONPROFITS.

AND SO THAT GOES BACK TO THE HISTORICAL REFLECTION OF THE NONPROFIT SECTOR AND HOW IT WAS CREATED.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT 2 BUCKETS RIGHTS, SYSTEMIC CHANGE, EVEN AT THE PHILANTHROPIC LEVEL, OUR ORGANIZATIONS ONLY RECEIVED 2% OF FUNDING.

OKAY, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

2%.

SO HOW ARE WE ACTUALLY FUNDING THAT WORK AND THEN TO OUT OF A 100% OF EXECUTIVE DIRECTORS, THE CEOS IN NONPROFITS ACROSS THE U.S., ONLY 20% OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THOSE DIRECTOR ROLES OR CEO ROLES, SO A 20% OUT OF 80, THAT'S THE DEPICTION OF NON PROFITS >> BUT IT'S NOT DOWN I SUPPOSE.

WITH ALL OF THESE NEW POSITIONS IN DEI BUT DOCTOR NEAL, YOU STUDY GENDER RELATIONSHIPS AND CULTURE, WHAT CAN YOU SHARE ABOUT THE CULTURAL ENVIRONMENT, BLACK WOMEN IN ARE IN THE LEADERSHIP SPACE IN THE BARRIERS THAT THEY HAD TO OVERCOME?

>> I MEAN YOU CAN JUST THINK ABOUT WHERE BLACK WOMEN ARE POSITIONED IN THE SOCIAL ECONOMIC STRUCTURE IN THIS COUNTRY, WHERE WE THINK OF THEM AS YOU KNOW IT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LOWEST OF THE POLL IN TERMS OF OUTCOMES IN TERMS OF SALARY, WEALTH, SO IT'S ALL THESE DYNAMICS OF VIOLENCE DIRECTED TOWARDS BLACK WOMEN THAT DOESN'T GET THE SAME KIND OF COVERAGE, WHEN THAT SAME KIND OF ANTI-BLACK VIOLENCE DIRECTED TOWARDS MEN, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT IN THE CONTEXT OF REPRESENTATION.

WHEN WE LOOK INTO POPULAR CULTURE, ONE OF THE REPRESENTATIONS OF BLACK WOMEN THAT CIRCULATE ON A REGULAR BASIS?

THIS IS WHY KERRY WASHINGTON'S CHARACTER IN SCANDAL WAS SO GROUNDBREAKING BECAUSE IT GAVE ANOTHER VERSION OF REPRESENTATION.

THIS IS WHY MICHELLE OBAMA HAS BEEN SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF BLACK WOMEN OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS.

WHY KAMALA HARRIS FIGURES IN THE WAY THAT SHE DOES AND WHY NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES IS IMPORTANT TO THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE LARGELY THE SOCIETY HAS RARELY SEEN BLACK WOMEN BEING IN POSITIONS OF EXPERTISE WHERE THEIR EXPERTISE IS UNQUESTIONED.

WE RARELY HAVE SEEN THAT IN AMERICAN CULTURE AND WHEN IT IS PRESENTED TO MANY AMERICANS, THEY DON'T QUITE KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

>> THAT'S SO CRAZY, BUT IT'S TRUE AND I WANT TO MOVE TO TALKING ABOUT ALLY SHIP BECAUSE OFTENTIMES WE CAN FOCUS ON WELL, GEE WHAT CAN WE DO AS BLACK WOMEN TO BE MORE ACCEPTED OR TO CREATE A MORE WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT.

BUT SHANTE, I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY IN POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP OR NON-BLACK CAN DO TO MAKE SURE THAT IT THAT THESE BARRIERS ARE REMOVED.

>> YOU KNOW THE FIRST THING THEY CAN DO IS START RECOGNIZING THE PATTERNS OF BEHAVIORS IN MEETINGS.

IF YOU'RE SITTING IN A MEETING AND THERE'S A BLACK WOMAN ON YOUR TEAM OR A BLACK WOMAN IN LEADERSHIP, THAT'S NOT A PART OF THE DISCUSSION THEY CAN BRING THEM IN.

WHEN A BLACK WOMAN SAYS SOMETHING IN A MEETING THAT IS QUITE PROFOUND AND ITS BRUSHED ASIDE OR WALKED OVER, AND THEN THE COLLEAGUE SAID SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR IF NOT THE SAME AND THEN IT GETS RECOGNIZED.

CALL THAT OUT RIGHT IN THE MEETING, "HEY THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT SHE JUST SAID" YOU KNOW, LET'S WORK ON THAT, I MEAN REALLY RECOGNIZING THE CONTRIBUTION AND THEN FINALLY IF YOU ARE IN AN ORGANIZATION AND YOU HAVE EMPTY BOARD SEATS IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE EXECUTIVES TO FILL POSITIONS.

PULL UP A BLACK WOMAN.

CALL A BLACK WOMAN.

DIAL UP A BLACK WOMAN.

BEFORE GOING ON WE DID YOU KNOW LITERALLY START DOING THE LEGWORK YOURSELF AND REACHING OUT IF YOU DON'T KNOW ANY, DO THE LEGWORK TO PULL SOMEBODY INTO YOUR ORGANIZATION TO CHANGE IT.

>> AND LA'MESHIA I WOULD SAY SOME OF THIS IS NOT JUST WHAT HAPPENS IN THE CONFINES OF THE OFFICE SPACE ARE THERE OTHER SPACES FOR ALLIES TO DO THE WORK BECOME ANTI RACIST TO ENCOURAGE STRONG LEADERSHIP BY BLACK WOMEN BY OTHERS.

>> THE EXAMPLE, I LIKE TO USE BECAUSE I WORK YOU KNOW IN ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE HEAVILY, AND SO I USE THIS EXAMPLE OFTEN WHEN I DO SPEAK TO ALLIES.

YOU KNOW OVER 56% PEOPLE OF COLOR LIVE ONLY 2 MILES AWAY FROM A TOXIC WASTE DUMP LANDFILL THAT POISON ENTIRE RIVERS, OUR WATERSHEDS, OUR LIVESTOCK, WHICH IS OUR FOOD SUPPLY.

OKAY, BUT A RIVER DOESN'T STOP RUNNING JUST BECAUSE IT LEFT A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD AND AIR DOESN'T STOP FLOWING JUST BECAUSE IT LEFT OUT OF THE BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD.

THAT MEANS YOU'RE DRINKING THE SAME WATER AND BREATHING THE SAME AIR.

AND THE FAMILIES AND THE EMPLOYEES IN THE CONTRACT STAFF THAT ARE WORKING AS FRANCHISE WORKERS CORPORATION WORKERS AT DESERVE LIVABLE WAGES, THEY DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR LEADERSHIP RECOGNIZED, BUT ALSO COMPENSATED, AND FAIR INSURANCE, WHEN THEY'RE PACKAGING OUR FOOD, AND THAT POISON WATER THAT GOES IN THAT POISON PACKAGE IT'S BEING SHIPPED TO YOUR HOME, SHIPPED YOUR GROCERY STORE, SO IT BEHOOVES YOU TO PRIORITIZE OUR PEOPLE AND OUR LEADERSHIP BECAUSE WE CAN TELL YOU WHERE THE IMPACT IS AND HOW TO SOLVE IT BECAUSE WE ARE THE IMPACTED.

>> DOCTOR NEAL, WHAT CAN YOU SHARE ABOUT BLACK MEN IN THE LEADERSHIP SPACE AND HOW THEY CAN BE ALLIES AS WELL?

>> WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE A GENIUS, OF BLACK WOMEN IN THE SPACE TO ALLOW AND CREATE SPACES FOR THEM TO THRIVE.

YOU KNOW MUCH THE WAY THAT WE PUSH FORWARD TO TRY TO DRIVE OURSELVES, WE HAVE TO BE AWARE SELF AWARE OF THE WAY THE MASCULINITY AND PATRIARCHY FUNCTIONS AND JUST BECAUSE WE'RE SUCCESSFUL DOESN'T ALWAYS MEAN THAT WE'RE CREATING SPACES FOR BLACK WOMEN.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY INTENTIONAL IN THAT REGARD.

>> DOCTOR MARC ANTHONY NEAL, LA'MESHIA WHITTINGTON, DOCTOR SHANTE WILLIAMS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

EVEN AS BLACK WOMEN CONTINUE TO STRIVE FOR EQUAL TREATMENT AND OPPORTUNITY IN BOARD ROOMS AND C-SUITES, OUR COUNTRY STRUGGLES TOWARD FAIR AND EQUAL TREATMENT FOR BLACK WOMEN AND MEN WITHIN POLICING.

MAY 25TH OF THIS WEEK MARKED THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE POLICE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AS WE REFLECT ON THE IMAGE OF HIS YOUNG DAUGHTER GIANNA MAKING HER WAY THROUGH THE WHITE HOUSE DOORS THAT DAY AT THE INVITATION OF THE PRESIDENT, LET'S NOT FORGET THAT AFTER A YEAR OF CONVERSATIONS AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF ANOTHER RACIAL AWAKENING, CONGRESS HAS YET TO PASS ANY MEANINGFUL LEGISLATION THAT MIGHT REFORM OR HOLD ACCOUNTABLE RACIAL BIAS IN POLICING OR ENSURE THE RIGHTS OF BLACK AMERICANS TO FAIR AND EQUAL TREATMENT BY LAW ENFORCEMENT.

ONCE AGAIN, I WANT TO THANK ALL OF TODAY'S GUESTS.

WE INVITE YOU TO ENGAGE WITH US TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM USING THE HASHTAG "BLACK ISSUES FORUM".

YOU CAN ALSO FIND OUR FULL EPISODES ON PBSNC.ORG/BLACKISSUESFORUM OR LISTEN AT ANY TIME ON APPLE ITUNES, SPOTIFY, OR GOOGLE PODCASTS.

FOR BLACK ISSUES FORUM, I'M DEBORAH HOLT NOEL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING!

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