>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE ACROSS MY DISTRICT AND I THINK ACROSS MOST PEOPLE'S DISTRICT IS THE AFFORDABILITY PIECE.

>> DEMOCRATS VOW RELIEF IS ON THE WAY, BUT CAN THEY DELIVER?

I ASK NOBEL PRIZE WINNING ECONOMIST PAUL KRUGMAN.

> >> THEN A SPECIAL REPORT FROM MOSCOW ON THE FINAL DAYS OF A RUSSIAN INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPER FORCED TO SHUT DOWN.

> >> PLUS, A LOOK AT PRESS FREEDOM IN EGYPT WITH EDITOR LINA ATTALAH, WHOSE WEBSITE WAS JUST ORDERED CLOSED BY A CAIRO COURT.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE NEED PEOPLE TO ARTICULATE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A PURCHASE WITH YOUNG MEN WHO SAY YES, THERE IS HOPE.

>> WHY SO MANY MEN AREN'T WORKING.

STANFORD PROFESSOR KEITH HUMPHREYS AND EXPERT BRENT ORRELL TELL MICHEL MARTIN WHAT'S BEHIND THIS TROUBLING TREND IN THE LABOR FORCE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO."

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR NORMA C. WARNER AND PAUL WARNER.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> AND A WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON SITTING IN IN NEW YORK FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE LAME DUCK SESSION BEGINS.

LAWMAKERS RETURN TO WASHINGTON TODAY AFTER A HISTORIC ROUT BY THE DEMOCRATS, GIVING THEM CONTROL OF BOTH THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE COME JANUARY.

THRONGS OF NEWLY ELECTED DEMOCRATS ARE ALSO IN THE CAPITOL FOR THEIR NEW MEMBER ORIENTATION.

YOU SEE SOME OF THEM SMILING THERE.

VOTERS OVERWHELMINGLY WENT BLUE THIS MIDTERM CYCLE, UPSET BY A SLEW OF ISSUES, CHIEF AMONG THEM AFFORDABILITY.

DEMOCRATS ARE PLEDGING TO GET RIGHT TO WORK TO BRING DOWN COSTS AND MAKE LIFE EASIER FOR AMERICANS.

THE QUESTION, CAN THEY DELIVER?

NOBEL PRIZE WINNING ECONOMIST PAUL KRUGMAN HAS SOME THOUGHTS FOR THE PARTY.

IN HIS LATEST eBOOK IS "NAVIGATING THE CHAOS. "

AND PAUL KRUGMAN JOINS US NOW FROM NEW YORK.

REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU.

AND I'M GOING TO GET RIGHT TO IT IN TERMS OF YOUR REACTION ON TUESDAY NIGHT.

DID THE SCALE, THE SCOPE OF THIS DEMOCRATIC VICTORY SURPRISE YOU?

AND WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TAKEAWAY THAT VOTERS HAD AFTER THAT NIGHT?

>> OKAY, YES, THAT SURPRISED ME.

THE MODELS SAID THERE WAS AN 80% CHANCE OF THEM, DEMOCRATS TAKING THE SENATE.

BUT LIKE MOST LIBERALS, I HAVE PTSD ON ELECTIONS, SO I WAS KIND OF EMOTIONALLY READY FOR SOMETHING BAD.

AND INSTEAD IT TURNS OUT THAT THE POLLS UNDERSTATED THE DEMOCRATIC MARGINS.

SO THAT WAS A REAL SHOCK, AND A GOOD ONE.

SO, YEAH, WHAT MORE CAN YOU SAY.

AND I'M --YOU KNOW, I'M HAPPY, ALTHOUGH WELL AWARE THAT WE'VE ALSO JUST SEEN THAT VOTERS REALLY CAN TURN ON A DIME IF THEY DON'T FEEL THAT YOU'RE DELIVERING.

>> SWING VOTERS INDEED.

I'M SURE SO MANY AMERICANS WOULD DESCRIBE THEMSELVES THAT WAY.

SO NOW IT'S OVER TO YOU DEMOCRATS.

THEY WILL CONTROL BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS, BUT TRUMP, AS YOU KNOW STILL HAS THAT VETO.

YOU'VE ARGUED THAT THE DEMS SHOULD PASS AMBITIOUS LEGISLATION AND FORCE HIM TO USE THAT VETO.

IS THAT ENOUGH TO DELIVER THE CHANGE THAT VOTERS DEMANDED HERE?

LIKE TWO YEARS OF POLITICAL GRIDLOCK?

I DON'T THINK, PROFESSOR, KRUGMAN, THAT THAT'S WHAT MOST VOTERS WERE SAYING ON THOSE EXIT POLLS.

>> I KNOW.

THERE'S A QUESTION OF WHAT PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO HAPPEN, BUT I THINK DEMOCRATS --ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THIS WENT SO BADLY FOR TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES IS THAT HE PROMISED THE MOON.

HE PROMISED I'M GOING CUT ENERGY PRICES IN HALF, GROCERY PRICES WILL START FALLING ON DAY ONE.

AND INFLATION HAS ACTUALLY GOTTEN WORSE ON HIS WATCH.

BUT I THINK THE REALLY BIG THING IS THE GAP BETWEEN ALL OF THOSE EXTRAVAGANT PROMISES AND THE REALITY.

DEMOCRATS SHOULD NOT PRETEND THAT THEY CAN DO, YOU KNOW --THEY CAN'T --THEY PROBABLY CAN'T GET LEGISLATION PAST TRUMP'S VETO UNLESS MAYBE ON A FEW ISSUES THERE WILL BE --IT WILL BE EXTREMELY POPULAR PROPOSALS, AND POSSIBLY ENOUGH REPUBLICANS WILL CROSS OVER TO OVERRIDE THE VETO.

BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO STUFF LEGISLATIVELY.

ALSO, AFFORDABILITY IS PEOPLE'S PRIME CONCERN, ALTHOUGH I WOULD SAY WE REALLY SHOULD BE MENTIONING THAT CORRUPTION RAN A PRETTY CLOSE SECOND IN MANY RESPONSES TO WHAT MOTIVATED VOTERS.

AND THE REPUTATION THE DEMOCRATS CAN DEFINITELY DO SOMETHING ABOUT WITH SUBPOENAS AND HEARINGS.

BUT ON AFFORDABILITY, IT IS A REALLY TOUGH THING.

IF PEOPLE WANT TO SEE PRICES GO BACK TO WHAT THEY WERE PRECOVID, NOBODY CAN DELIVER THAT, EVEN WITH A DEMOCRATIC TRIFECTA ABLE TO PASS EVERY LEGISLATION THAT YOU MIGHT THINK OF.

THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE OF A FEW PERCENT MAYBE, MOSTLY BY UNDOING THINGS THAT TRUMP HAS DONE, BY UNDOING THE TARIFFS.

BY ENDING THE WAR.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THAT --I WANT TO GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE.

AND I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE CORRUPTION PIECE OF IT IS CONNECTED TO THE AFFORDABILITY.

BUT LET'S GO TO SOME OF THE STATS.

ACCORDING TO THE LABOR DEPARTMENT, INFLATION WAS 3.

7% IN SEPTEMBER WHILE AVERAGE EARNINGS ROSE JUST 3.

1%.

LOOK, IT DOESN'T TAKE ANY -- ANY DEEP DIVE INTO LABOR STATISTICS HERE TO TELL AMERICANS THAT THEY ARE BEING SQUEEZED.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME, PROFESSOR KRUGMAN, THAT IN TWO YEARS THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE POLLS AND SAY OH, SORRY, WE HAD A PRESIDENT WIELDING HIS VETO AND WE COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.

SO WHAT CAN THEY ACTUALLY DO TO BRING DOWN THE COST OF LIVING?

>> WELL, I MEAN, AT THE -- I MEAN, IF THEY CAN'T PASS A LAW, THEN WHAT THEY CONTROL IS THE LEGISLATURE.

IF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS UNDER TRUMP'S CONTROL, THEY CANNOT GET PAST THAT.

THEY CAN I THINK MAKE A REALLY GOD CASE THAT THEY HAVE PASSED GOOD STUFF AND IT'S ALL TRUMP'S FAULT.

THEY, AGAIN, MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET SOME REPUBLICANS TO CROSS OVER TO SUPPORT SOME OF THE LEGISLATION, PARTICULARLY I THINK ON THE WAR.

MAYBE ON THE TARIFFS, SOME OF THE TARIFFS.

I SHOULD ALSO MENTION THAT A BIG FACTOR THAT'S KIND OF GETS UNMENTIONED IN THE LAW OF MEANTARY IS HEALTH CARE COSTS.

THE END TO ENHANCED SUBSIDIES FOR THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, TO THE END OF WHAT BIDEN DID ON THAT IS HAVING A HUGE IMPACT.

IT'S CAUSING SOME PEOPLE'S HEALTH INSURANCE BILLS TO JUST SKYROCKET.

AND THAT WOULD TAKE NOT MUCH.

THAT WOULD TAKE REVERSING THE CUTS THE REPUBLICANS HAVE IMPOSED.

SO THEY CAN DO REAL STUFF THERE IF THEY CAN EITHER IF TRUMP IS UNWILLING TO BE THE BAD GUY SO OPENLY, OR IF ENOUGH REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS ARE WILLING TO BE THE BAD GUY.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU ASK ME PERSONALLY, WHAT WILL YOU DO TO IMPROVE AFFORDABILITY?

WELL, I CAN'T DO ANYTHING.

I DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT.

I THINK PEOPLE WOULD ACCEPT THAT.

BUT, YEAH, IT'S GOING TO BE A HARD ROW, THOUGH I THINK IT'S MADE A LITTLE BIT EASIER BY THE FACT THAT SO MUCH OF THE CURRENT AFFORDABILITY CRISIS IS TIED DIRECTLY TO POLICIES THAT CAN BE REVERSED.

>> RIGHT.

AND SO LET'S TAKE, THEN, TARIFFS.

DO YOU BELIEVE CONGRESS CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, AT LEAST SOME OF THEM?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, THE --WE'VE ALREADY SEEN --I MEAN, TRUMP HAS DONE EVERYTHING ON TARIFFS WITHOUT EVER BRINGING IT BEFORE CONGRESS.

HE'S DONE IT BY EXPLOITING LOOPHOLES IN U. S. TRADE LAW, WHICH IN IMPORTANT CASES HAVE BEEN RULED ILLEGAL BY THE SUPREME COURT.

SO ACTUALLY, THE TARIFFS HAVE COME DOWN SOME JUST BECAUSE IT WAS ALL ILLEGAL.

BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY PASS LAWS OR YOU CAN TRY TO PASS LAWS THAT SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE RESTRICTING PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY HERE.

IF YOU CANNOT GO AND JUST IMPOSE ALL OF THESE TARIFFS ON SHADY, SHIFTY GROUNDS WITHOUT CONSULTING WITH CONGRESS, AND THAT WOULD FORCE HIM TO ABANDON A LOT OF THEM.

AND SO I THINK WE'RE HEARING --I'M HEARING THAT THEY'RE REALLY GOING TO START WITH THE TARIFFS ON CANADA.

>> RIGHT.

>> NATIONAL SECURITY TARIFFS.

PROTECTING OURSELVES FROM THOSE EVIL IMPERIALISTIC CANADIANS.

THERE IS A STRONG POPULAR MOVEMENT TO UNDO THOSE.

SO THAT'S ONE THING THAT YOU CAN DO.

>> YEAH, AND THERE IS NO INTELLECTUAL COMPATIBILITY THERE, CONSISTENCY GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEY RUN A DEFENSE ORGANIZATION WITH CANADA.

SO THERE WOULD BE NO NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE THERE.

I THINK THAT'S AN OBVIOUS POINT THAT AGAIN CONGRESS DID NOT ACT ON FOR SO MANY MONTHS NOW.

I DO WANT TO GET TO THIS ISSUE THAT YOU'RE SAYING STAND UP TO THIS PRESIDENT.

NOW DEMOCRATS ARE CONSIDERING BLOCKING FUNDING FOR TRUMP'S WAR IN IRAN AHEAD OF THE DECEMBER 11th GOVERNMENT FUNDING DEADLINE.

YOU KNOW, YOU CALLED FOR REFUSING TO SPEND MORE BILLIONS ON WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS A FAILED WAR.

THAT DOES TIE AMERICA'S HANDS BEHIND ITS BACK, THOUGH.

AND DO YOU THINK THAT'S WORTH DOING?

DO YOU THINK IT'S WORTH RISKING A SEVERE ECONOMIC CRISIS, WHICH WOULD BE ANOTHER GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN?

>> AT SOME POINT YOU JUST HAVE TO ACT.

YOU CAN'T ALLOW THE CONSTANT --BASICALLY YOU HAVE TO SAY LOOK, THIS IS TRUMP'S DECISION, AND IF HE WANTS TO TRY AND DEMAND THAT HE CONTINUE A WAR WHICH WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY ILLEGAL, CERTAINLY HAS BEEN A TOTAL DISASTER, YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

SO, YEAH.

NOW, WE DON'T KNOW HOW IT PLAYS OUT.

IT IS TRUE THAT HISTORICALLY, THE PARTY THAT THREATENS TO SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT ENDS UP SUFFERING FOR IT.

BUT NOBODY'S EVER TRIED TO DO THIS IN THE CONTEXT OF A PRESIDENT LIKE TRUMP, WHO HAS BEEN SO ABUSIVE OF HIS POWER.

I THINK THAT IF THE DEMOCRATS DON'T DO SOMETHING, THEY WILL ACTUALLY PAY A PRICE IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN CREDIBILITY.

BUT GOD KNOWS.

AND OF COURSE IT MAY BE MUCH WORSE.

FOR ALL WE KNOW, TRUMP IS GOING TO RESUME BOMBING OF IRAN LIKE TOMORROW.

STILL ABLE TO DO THAT.

SO THEY REALLY NEED TO TAKE ACTION ON THAT FRONT.

AND SO MUCH, THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN DONE ECONOMICALLY BY THE WAR IS REALLY QUITE SPECTACULAR.

THERE ARE VERY FEW FEDERAL POLICIES THAT YOU CAN UNDERTAKE THAT WILL DO AS MUCH TO MAKE LIFE LESS AFFORDABLE THAN THIS WAR WITH IRAN.

>> I WANT TO GET TO SOME OF YOUR ECONOMIC THEORY, THOUGH, WHICH REALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE STATISTICS WE'VE HAD RECENTLY, HERE'S JUST ONE THAT I FIND EXTRAORDINARY.

ACCORDING TO THE LABOR DEPARTMENT, THE SHARE OF AMERICA'S ECONOMIC OUTPUT GOING TO WORKERS IN WAGES AND BENEFITS IS AT ITS LOWEST LEVEL IN 80 YEARS.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS HOW MUCH WEALTH IS SHIFTING FROM WORKERS TO OWNERS AND CAPITAL?

BECAUSE THE CAPITAL POINT HERE IS IMPORTANT?

AND HOW QUICKLY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT'S ACCELERATING INEQUALITY?

>> OH, IT'S DEFINITELY ACCELERATING INEQUALITY QUITE A LOT.

AND IT'S A BIG DEAL.

THIS IS SEVERAL PERCENT OF INCOME IS GOING FROM WORKERS, WHICH IS BASICALLY ALMOST EVERYBODY, TO CAPITAL, WHICH IS VERY HIGHLY CONCENTRATED.

IN THE BIG STORY OF THE PAST 20 YEARS HAS BEEN THAT INEQUALITY OF WAGES HAS RISEN, BUT THE REALLY BIG CHANGE IS WEALTH.

I LIKE LOOK AT THE RICHEST 200 PEOPLE IN AMERICA, ROUGHLY SPEAKING, THE TOP .

0001.

I CAN NEVER KEEP THE NUMBER OF ZEROS STRAIGHT.

BUT THAT PERCENT.

THAT WAS AROUND HALF PERCENT OF TOTAL WEALTH IN 1980.

IT'S SEVEN TIMES THAT NOW.

SO WE'VE SEEN THIS ENORMOUS CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH AT THE TOP.

AND THEN A GREATER SHARE OF INCOME GOING TO WEALTH AS OPPOSED TO WORK.

SO THIS IS --THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED OVERNIGHT, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY GOT TO BE AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

SO, YEAH.

>> AND HOW DOES THAT RELATE TO THE OF IT ALL?

AMERICA'S STOCK MARKET AND INCOME GROWTH HAVE BECOME INCREASINGLY INDEPENDENT ON AI.

WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED, THE GYRATIONS IN THE MARKET.

YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THE RISKS TO THE MARKET, WHICH IS NOW SO CLOSELY TIED TO SO MANY PEOPLE'S PEOPLE'S WEALTH, THEIR PENSION FUNDS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

>> YEAH, BY ANY QUANTITATIVE MEASURE, IF THE AI BOOM, WHICH SURE LOOKS LIKE A BUBBLE, BUT IN MANY CASES, IF THE AI BOOM BOTH IN STOCK PRICES AND IN INVESTMENT OF DUBIOUS RETURNS IS WAY BIGGER THAN THE DOT COM BUBBLE OF THE LATE 1990s.

AND THAT --WHEN THAT BUBBLE BURSTS, IT WAS A NOT THAT HUGE A RECESSION, BUT IT WAS A VERY PROLONGED ONE.

THE ECONOMY REMAINED DEPRESSED.

EMPLOYMENT REMAINED WELL BELOW WHERE IT HAD BEEN FOR YEARS.

WE'RE LOOKING AT SOMETHING THAT COULD BE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE DAMAGING THAN 2000 TO 2004 OR SO.

WE HAD A DEPRESSED ECONOMY FROM THE END OF THAT BUBBLE.

SO THIS IS A REALLY BIG DEAL.

THE OTHER THING TO SAY ABOUT AI IS ALTHOUGH THE DECLINE IN THE SHARE OF NATIONAL INCOME GOING TO WORKERS HAS BEEN DECLINING FOR A WHILE, IT'S CLEAR THAT AI IS REINFORCING THAT.

AND MOSTLY BECAUSE MONEY THAT'S INVESTED IN AI GENERATES INCREDIBLY FEW JOBS.

YOU KNOW.

A MAJOR DATA CENTER COSTS ABOUT $8 BILLION TO BUILD.

AND THE ECONOMY AT LARGE, $8 BILLION EMPLOYEES ABOUT 10,000 WORKERS.

A DATA CENTER EMPLOYEES ABOUT 100 WORKERS.

SO THE FACT THAT WE'RE PUTTING SO MUCH OF OUR INVESTMENT RESOURCES INTO THIS AI THING IS VERY MUCH SHIFTING THE BALANCE OF POWER AGAINST LABOR AND TOWARDS CAPITAL.

>> AND I DO WANT TO BRING THIS CONVERSATION TO WHAT THE HEADLINES ARE TODAY.

NVIDIA CEO JENSEN HUANG HAS ADMITTED TO HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH A WOMAN U. S. INTELLIGENCE BELIEVES COULD BE A CHINESE SPY.

NVIDIA SAYS IT HAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE COMPANY SECRETS ARE BROACHED.

IT'S MATERIAL TO SUCCESS AND HE HAS FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY TO PUBLIC SHAREHOLDERS IN THIS COUNTRY.

YOU'VE LOOKED AT THIS SO CLOSELY FOR SO MANY YEARS IN TERMS OF WHAT KEEPS AMERICAN SHAREHOLDERS SAFE HERE AND WHAT THE RESPONSIBILITIES THERE ARE.

IS THERE A FUNDAMENTAL CONFLICT BETWEEN WHAT NVIDIA IS DOING AND EVEN HOW THEY'RE HANDLING THIS INVESTIGATION AND THE AMERICAN SECURITY INTERESTS?

>> OH, WELL, THIS IS CLEAR.

WE'VE ALWAYS HAD MAJOR DEFENSE CONTRACTORS, BUT -- WHICH MEANS THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS IN POSSESSION OF A LOT OF NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION.

BUT IN THE PAST, WE ALWAYS KIND OF POLICED THAT PRETTY SERIOUSLY.

THERE ARE REPORTS NOW CIRCULATING THAT SAY THAT ALTHOUGH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, PEOPLE IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WERE AWARE THAT THERE WAS A REAL QUESTION HERE ABOUT HUANG'S AFFAIR, THEY --THAT IT WAS NOT FOLLOWED UP.

AND THERE IS AT LEAST SOME INDICATION THAT THE NOT FOLLOWING IT UP HAD TO DO WITH THINGS LIKE THE $25 MILLION THAT NVIDIA PAID TOWARDS TRUMP'S BALLROOM.

SO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THIS HAS GOT EVERYTHING.

IT'S GOT A HONEY TRAP, WHAT LOOKS LIKE UNDUE INFLUENCE ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THROUGH FINANCIAL -- THROUGH EFFECTIVELY A BRIBE, AND HERE WE HAVE THIS --WELL, CAN I SAY IT, IT'S THE KIND OF THING -- IF THIS WERE HAPPENING ON A DEMOCRAT, THE ENTIRE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS AND A FAIR NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS WOULD BE SAYING THIS KIND OF LOOKS LIKE TREASON.

SO NOW WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS ACTUALLY DISCLOSED.

I MEAN, BUT WE WOULDN'T, WOULD WE?

SO IT'S A REALLY TERRIBLE APPEARANCE.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THERE'S A LOT OF THAT GOING ON.

YOU GOT TO REMEMBER THAT WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE SOMETIMES IT SEEMS AS IF ELON MUSK INDEPENDENTLY MAKING FOREIGN POLICY, NATIONAL SECURITY CRUCIAL DECISIONS BECAUSE UNLIKE IN THE PAST, WE'VE ALWAYS HAD DEFENSE CONTRACTORS, BUT THIS TIME AROUND IT'S NOT CLEAR WHO IS CALLING THE SHOTS.

>> A LOT TO THINK ABOUT THERE, ESPECIALLY AS IT RELATES TO WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING ON WITH THE AI TRADE IN GENERAL.

AND WE ALL HAVE A STAKE IN THAT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

THE BOOK IS "NAVIGATING THE CHAOS: CHRONICLES OF POLITICAL MADNESS. "

WE'RE THANKFUL TO HAVE YOUR REACTION AFTER THE EXTRAORDINARY RESULTS LAST WEEK IN THE UNITED STATES.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW A HUGE BLOW IN THE FIGHT FOR PRESS FREEDOM INSIDE RUSSIA.

FOR DECADES, NOVAYA GAZETA WAS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT JOURNALISTIC OUTLETS IN THE COUNTRY INVESTIGATING CORRUPTION CRIMES AND GIVING INSIGHTS INTO PUTIN'S RUSSIA.

BUT ITS FACTUAL, INDEPENDENT REPORTING HAS PUT THE ORGANIZATION UNDER THE KREMLIN SPOTLIGHT, AND NOW CO- FOUNDER DMITRY MURATOV SAYS THEY'RE CLOSING THEIR DOORS AFTER FACING EXTRAORDINARY PRESSURE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

HE SPOKE RECENTLY TO CORRESPONDENT GRED PLEITGEN IN MOSCOW AS THEY PREPARE FOR THEIR VERY FINAL EDITION.

>> Reporter: THE FINAL ORDER OF BUSINESS AND EMOTIONAL EDITORIAL MEETING.

THE FIERCELY INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPER NOVAYA GAZETA IS SHUTTING DOWN FOR GOOD.

FORCED OUT OF BUSINESS, THEY SAY, AFTER PRESSURE FROM RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES.

AFTER TAKING DOWN THE PORTRAITS OF THEIR COLLEAGUES KILLED ON THE JOB, NOVAYA GAZETA'S JOURNALISTS POURED INTO THE MOSCOW STREET.

>> Translator: I FEEL GRATITUDE FROM OUR AUDIENCE, STRONG EMOTIONS.

SO MANY PEOPLE WERE COMING HERE TO SAY GOODBYE TO THE NEWSPAPER.

>> Reporter: NOVAYA GAZETA HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 1990s AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A PUBLICATION THAT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THOSE IN POWER HERE IN RUSSIA.

ITS REPORTING WAS ALWAYS HARD-HITTING AS WERE ITS INVESTIGATIONS.

AND THE JOURNALISTS THAT ARE POURING ON TO THE STREETS HERE NOW SAY THAT WHILE THEY KNOW THIS IS THE END, THEY LEAVE WITH THEIR HEADS HELD HIGH.

NOVAYA GAZETA'S CO- FOUNDER, NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE DMITRY MURATOV, WHO HIMSELF HAS BEEN DECLARED A FOREIGN AGENT BY MOSCOW DEFIANT.

>> Translator: WE AREN'T CRYING BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE IN FAR WORSE SITUATIONS THAN US, PEOPLE IN UKRAINIAN CITIES LEFT IN THE DARK WITHOUT WATER OR HEAT ARE IN A FAR WORSE SITUATION.

AND POLITICAL PRISONERS HELD IN RUSSIAN JAILS ARE IN A FAR WORSE SITUATION THAN US.

AND OUR MISSION IS TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE WORSE OFF.

>> Reporter: SINCE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN ORDERED WHAT THE KREMLIN CALLS ITS SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION IN UKRAINE, NOVAYA GAZETA'S REPORTING HAS BEEN CRITICAL OF THE MOVE AND ITS CONSEQUENCES.

AND THAT LED TO INCREASING WARNINGS FROM RUSSIA'S MEDIA OVERSIGHT BODY.

RECENTLY THINGS STARTED GOING DOWNHILL FAST, MURATOV SAYS.

>> Translator: IN THE SPAN OF JUST A FEW DAYS, THE NEWSPAPER WAS DESIGNATED A FOREIGN AGENT, AND OVER 100 OF OUR STAFF MEMBERS WERE LABELED AS INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED IN THE ACTIVITIES OF A FOREIGN AGENT.

THEN OUR SUBSCRIBERS WHO PROVIDED OUR FUNDING WERE CUT OFF, LEAVING US WITHOUT A SINGLE PENNY.

AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF, THERE IS AN EVICTION NOTICE SITTING RIGHT HERE ON MY DESK.

WE'RE BEING EVICTED FROM OUR BUILDING, AND AS WE SEE IT, OUT OF OUR CITY.

>> Reporter: AS STAFF PACKED UP THE OFFICE, WHAT REMAINED WERE THE PICTURES PAYING TRIBUTE TO THE NOVAYA GAZETA JOURNALISTS KILLED OVER THE YEARS.

INCLUDING ANNA POLITKOFFSKAYA, EARNED HER INTERNATIONAL ACCLAIM BUT OFTEN THE IRE OF RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES.

SHE WAS SHOT AND KILLED IN MOSCOW ON OCTOBER 7th, 2006.

AND WHILE SEVERAL PEOPLE WERE CONVICTED, QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INCIDENT REMAIN.

>> Translator: YOU KNOW, I RECENTLY TURNED 65, AND I'VE REALIZED THAT AS I GET OLDER, I FIND MYSELF RETURNING MORE AND MORE, INCREASINGLY OFTEN TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES FOR JOURNALISM FOR THE SAKE OF UNCOVERING FACTS.

>> Reporter: MURATOV TOO HAS PAID A PRICE.

IN APRIL 2022, HE WAS ATTACKED WITH ACETONE-LACED PAINT, HIS FACE COLORED RED AFTER THE INCIDENT.

NOVAYA GAZETA'S OFFICES WERE RAIDED EARLY THIS YEAR, AND INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER OLEG PLACED UNDER HOUSE ARREST FOR ALLEGED MISUSE OF PERSONAL INFORMATION, A CLAIM HE DENIED IN COURT.

>> Translator: AS WE KNOW, TODAY IS GOOD FRIDAY.

I CONSIDER MYSELF A COMPLETELY INTERPERSON.

AND SENDING AN OBVIOUSLY INNOCENT PERSON TO PRISON ON GOOD FRIDAY IS NOT A VERY GOOD OMEN.

>> Reporter: THE KREMLIN FOR ITS PART DOWNPLAYING THE IMPORTANCE OF NOVAYA GAZETA'S DEMISE.

>> Translator: IT WOULD BE INCORRECT TO SAY AN ERA OF INDEPENDENT MEDIA IS COMING TO AN END.

YOU KNOW THE RUSSIAN MEDIA LANDSCAPE IS MULTIFACETED AND MULTIMEDIA BASED.

NOVAYA GAZETA'S LEADERSHIP SAYS THERE ARE NO PLANS TO TRY AND RECONSTITUTE THE PUBLICATION INSIDE RUSSIA.

>> Translator: SO NOW, THAT'S IT.

WE'RE TAKING OUR BELONGINGS AND TURNING OFF THE LIGHTS.

WE'LL TIDY UP THE PLACE.

WE'LL LEAVE A BOTTLE OF VODKA FOR THE NEXT PEOPLE WHO WILL COME HERE AND AS A FINAL GESTURE, WE'LL TEND TO OUR ANNA GARDEN.

I'LL TAKE MY UMBRELLA, MY JACKET, AND THE FRONT PAGES OF THE NEWSPAPER, AND THEN WE'LL LEAVE.

THAT'S ALL.

>> Reporter: AND WHILE HIS STAFF PROMISED NOT TO CRY, IN THE END, EMOTIONS DID GET THE BETTER OF SOME AS THEY VOWED TO STAND TALL IN THE FACE OF AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE.

> >> AND NOW TO THE U. S. , WHERE ONE IN TEN MEN OF PRIME WORKING AGE ARE NOT WORKING.

CONSERVATIVE EXPLANATIONS POINT TO THE DECLINE IN MANUFACTURING JOBS AND A FEMINIZED WORKPLACE.

BUT ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUESTS, THE JOBS EXIST.

THE INCENTIVE TO TAKE THEM DOES NOT.

THE CRISIS THEY SAY IS MOST PREVALENT AMONG WHITE RURAL MEN.

BRENT ORRELL AND KEITH HUMPHREYS JOIN MICHEL MARTIN TO UNPACK WHAT'S REALLY DRIVING MEN'S DISCONNECT FROM THE WORLD OF WORK AND HOW TO FIX IT.

>> THANKS, PAULA.

KEITH HUMPHREYS, BRENT ORRELL, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> OKAY, SO PROFESSOR HUMPHREYS, YOU ARE A PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AT STANFORD, AND AN ADDICTION RESEARCHER, AND MR.

ORRELL, YOU'RE A WORKFORCE POLICY EXPERT AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.

YOU PREVIOUSLY WORKED AT THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR.

YOU'VE WRITTEN A PIECE THAT --NOT TO BE FLIPPANT ABOUT IT, BUT THIS IS THE KIND OF THING MOMS AND GIRLFRIENDS ARE ASKING THEMSELVES WHICH IS WHY AREN'T ALL THESE MEN WORKING, OKAY.

YOU POINT OUT THAT ROUGHLY 6.

7 MILLION AMERICAN MEN BETWEEN THE AGES OF 25 AND 54 ARE OUTSIDE THE LABOR FORCE.

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WHO OUGHT TO BE IN THEIR PRIME WORKING YEARS.

SO THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU, AND MAYBE PROFESSOR HUMPHREYS, YOU'LL START WITH THIS, WHAT MADE YOU LOOK AT THIS QUESTION?

WHAT PARKED THAT QUERY?

>> BRENT AND I SERVE AT THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION THAT AI HAVE.

AND TRAVELING AROUND THE COUNTRY, I'VE JUST BEEN STRUCK BY THIS DISCONNECT OF TALKING TO PEOPLE IN COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY TALK WE HAVE A LOT OF YOUNG MEN WHO ARE NOT WORK AND NOT APPLYING FOR WORK AND DISENGAGED.

AND THEY SAY THERE IS NO JOBS OF THE SORT THEY WANT TO DO.

BUT THEN I MEET WITH EMPLOYERS, AND THEY SAY WE HAVE JOBS, GOOD JOBS WITH NICE WAGES AND BENEFITS DOING MANLY KINDS OF THINGS LIKE LOGGING OR SHIP BUILDING OR SO ON.

AND THESE YOUNG MEN DON'T APPLY, OR IF THEY DO APPLY, THEY HAVE --THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO WORK.

THEY DON'T KNOW YOU HAVE TO SHOW UP EVERY DAY AND ALSO THAT YOU CAN'T GET HIGH ON YOUR BREAK AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO THAT DISCONNECT IS WHAT GOT ME INTERESTED IN WHAT IS EXACTLY GOING ON WITH THESE MEN.

>> MR.

ORRELL, ONE OF THE REASONS THIS IS SO INTRIGUING IS THIS HAS BEEN SO MUCH A PART OF THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS.

SAY OH, MANUFACTURING JOBS HAVE DISAPPEARED.

FACTORIES HAVE MOVED OVERSEAS.

WAGES ARE STAGNANT.

THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT ARE TRUE.

BUT YOU POINT OUT THAT IN AUGUST, THERE WERE ROUGHLY 800,000 OPENINGS IN INDUSTRIES LIKE CONSTRUCTION, MANUFACTURING, AND MINING, WHAT PROFESSOR HUMPHREYS WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT.

SO WHO ARE THESE MEN WHO AREN'T WORKING?

>> I THINK WE'VE GOT A LARGE NUMBER OF MEN WHO ARE SIGNIFICANTLY DISABLED WHO NEED THE INCOME PROVIDED BY SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY INCOME AND OTHER PUBLIC SUPPORT PROGRAMS.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

I DO THINK THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MEN WHO PERHAPS ARE NOT ON PUBLIC PROGRAMS, BUT ALSO NOT IN THE WORKFORCE.

WHAT WE ARGUE IN THE PIECE IS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN STRUCTURAL CHANGES IN THE WORKFORCE SINCE THE 1960s WHEN THIS WAS AT AN ALL- TIME HIGH, 95% OF MEN WERE IN THE WORKFORCE.

THERE ARE STRUCTURAL CHANGES THAT HAVE ELIMINATED CATEGORIES OF WORK THAT MEN RELIED UPON, MAINLY THOSE MANUFACTURING JOBS.

BUT THAT'S NOW ALMOST 16 YEARS AGO.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THAT CAN'T EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THE SIX MILLION MEN WHO ARE NOT IN THE WORKFORCE OR NOT LOOKING FOR WORK.

WHAT WE ARGUE IS THAT BECAUSE THE COUNTRY IS SO MUCH RICHER THAN IT WAS IN 1916, TWENTYFOLD INCREASE IN GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, WE'VE HAD, YOU KNOW, A REALLY LARGE EXPANSION OF WELFARE STATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND I'M NOT BEING CRITICAL OF THAT.

WE NEED THOSE PROGRAMS.

BUT IT HAS SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH NOT WORKING.

IN ADDITION, YOU'VE HAD TENS OF MILLIONS OF WOMEN JOIN THE WORKFORCE.

SO THAT COMBINATION ECONOMIC GROWTH, THE EXPANSION OF THE WELFARE NET AND THE PARTICIPATION OF MANY MORE WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE COMBINED TO CREATE A SITUATION IN WHICH THE RISK OF NOT WORKING IS SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED.

>> VERY OFTEN THESE MEN ARE BEING CARRIED BY A WOMAN ECONOMICALLY.

THEY'VE MOVED BACK HOME OR THEY HAVE A GIRLFRIEND.

WHAT'S SAD, THERE IS A LOT OF MISOGYNISTIC EXPLANATIONS IN THE MANISPHERE ABOUT HOW WOMEN FEM NICE THE WORKPLACE AND MEN DON'T HAVE ANY REAL JOBS ANYMORE.

BUT THE TRUTH IS WITHOUT WOMEN'S SUPPORT, THESE MEN WOULD BE IN A LOT OF TROUBLE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO PICK UP ON IS ONE OF THE MORE STRIKING FINDINGS IN YOUR PIECE IS THE WAY SOME OF THESE MEN ARE SPENDING THEIR TIME.

RESEARCH SAYS THEY WATCH AN AVERAGE OF 5 1/2 HOURS OF TELEVISION AND MOVIES A DAY, NOT A WEEK, A DAY, ON TOP OF ACTIVITIES LIKE GAMING AND PORNOGRAPHY.

YOU ALSO POINT OUT TO MARIJUANA USE.

MORE THAN A QUARTER OF MEN WHO ARE NOT EMPLOYED USE MARIJUANA DAILY OR NEARLY DAILY.

SE SO THE QUESTION I HAVE IS WHAT'S THE CHICKEN AND WHAT'S THE EGG?

ARE THEY SELF- MEDICATING BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT WORKING, OR THE FACT THAT THEY'RE SELF-MEDICATING MEANS THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO WORK?

>> THAT WOULD BE A TOUGH GORDIAN KNOT TO CUT IN HALF BECAUSE YOU CAN EASILY IMAGINE BOTH THINGS HAPPENING.

WHERE WE FOCUS A LOT, AS WE SHOULD ON THE CHANGES OF THE STRUCTURE OF WORK.

BUT THE STRUCTURE OF NOT WORKING IS UTTERLY DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE ECONOMY HAS PRODUCED A LARGE AMOUNT OF VERY, VERY CHEAP AND ADDICTIVE SORT OF TRANSITORY ENTERTAINMENTS LIKE GAMBLING, LIKE MARIJUANA, LIKE PORNOGRAPHY, LIKE SURFING ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND THAT SORT OF THING.

AND THAT IS ENTICING, AND PROBABLY KEEPS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF THESE MEN OUT OF THE WORKFORCE BECAUSE DAY TO DAY, THAT IS REWARDING IN THE SHORT- TERM, EVEN THOUGH IF YOU LOOK AT IN THE LONG-TERM, IT'S NOT TAKING THEM ANYWHERE GOOD.

THERE WILL BE AN END IF THEY DON'T STOP DOING THAT FIVE, TEN YEARS FROM NOW, IT'S JUST GOING TO GET HARDER AND HARDER.

AND SO PART OF WHAT THE SOLUTION HERE IS WE SHOULD PUT SOME CONSTRAINTS ON THOSE INDUSTRIES, SO BRENT AND I ARGUE.

WE DON'T NEED TO HAVE.

WE DID FIND THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT SPORTS GAMBLING BEING EVERYWHERE AND EVERY PLACE FOR A LONG TIME.

WE CAN GO BACK TO MARIJUANA IS NOW SUPER CHEAP WITH REGULATION.

WE CAN TREAT IT MORE LIKE TOBACCO WHERE WE TRY TO TAX IT AND RESTRICT IT SO FEWER PEOPLE GET ADDICTED TO IT.

THOSE TYPE OFS OF THINGS WOULD REDUCE THE INCENTIVES TO SORT OF STAY IN THE STATE WHERE YOU'RE NOT ENGAGED IN THE WORKFORCE AND DOING THINGS THAT MAKE YOU LESS READY TO WORK THAN YOU WERE ALREADY.

>> THE IDLENESS ITSELF CREATES A VACUUM.

THE VACUUM HAS TO BE FILLED SOMEHOW.

SO IN THE MODERN WORLD, WE FILL THAT VACUUM WITH ELECTRONICS AND ELECTRONIC MEDIA.

AND SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY THAT THESE THINGS CAUSE THE WITHDRAWAL FROM WORK.

THEY DO ANCHOR PEOPLE IN NOT WORKING.

THEY TEND TO ANCHOR PEOPLE IN THAT BECAUSE IT'S SO COMPARATIVELY PLEASANT, ESPECIALLY RELATIVE TO SHOWING UP TO A JOB.

>> BUT YOU POINT OUT THIS INTERESTING DOUBLE STANDARD ON HOW WE'VE TALKED ABOUT MEN WHO ARE NOT WORKING.

WHEN BLACK MEN IN URBAN COMMUNITIES WERE LOSING JOBS BECAUSE OF THESE STRUCTURAL CHANGES THAT YOU TALK ABOUT, CONSERVATIVES BASICALLY DISMISSED IT.

THEY SAID OH, IT'S A LACK OF WORK ETHIC.

THEY MADE IT BASICALLY A PROBLEM OF THEM, LIKE THEY HAD SOME CHARACTER FLAW AS A GROUP, OKAY.

BUT NOW THAT WE'RE SEEING SIMILAR STRUGGLES AMONG WHITE MEN, THE EXPLANATION IS IT'S GLOBALIZATION, IT'S IMMIGRATION, IT'S DISAPPEARING FACTORY JOBS.

SO NOW THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IS SORT OF TAKING IT SERIOUSLY.

WHAT I IS THAT?

>> WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS HOW WILLIAM JULIUS WILSON IN THE 1990s IN THE LATE 90s SAID ABOUT BLACK MEN, IT ISN'T THAT THESE MEN LEFT WORK, IT'S THE WORK LEFT THEM.

THERE IS A GEOGRAPHIC MISMATCH BETWEEN WORKERS AND JOBS.

SO THAT WAS WHAT EXPLAINED IT.

CONSERVATIVES REALLY PUSHED BACK ON THAT AND SAID NO, NO, THIS IS A CULTURAL ISSUE.

THIS IS AN ETHICAL ISSUE.

THIS IS A CHARACTER ISSUE.

BLACK MEN JUST DON'T WANT TO WORK.

>> YEAH, THEIR CULTURE.

>> YEAH, IT'S A CULTURAL PROBLEM.

AND NOW THAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON NONWORK AMONG WHITE MEN, MANY CONSERVATIVES WANT TO SAY THAT THIS IS A STRUCTURAL ISSUE, THAT IT'S IMMIGRATION, THAT IT'S TRADE.

THEY'VE DISCOVERED THEIR INNER STRUCTURALIST, YOU KNOW.

SO THERE IS A REAL --THERE IS A LOT OF HYPOCRISY, I THINK, UP AND DOWN THE LADDER ON THIS.

AND WHAT WE NEED TO SAY IS IT IS BOTH STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS, CHANGES IN THE LABOR FORCE, CHANGES IN THE NEEDS OF THE ECONOMY AND CULTURAL PROBLEMS THAT ARE MUTUALLY REINFORCING AND THAT LEAD PEOPLE TO WORK AND KEEP THEM THERE.

THEN THERE ARE MANY, MANY WHO STAY AT HOME TO TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS BECAUSE THEIR WIVES MAKE MORE MONEY.

THE PROBLEM IS ISOLATED MEN WHO ARE WITHDRAWING FROM THE WORKFORCE, WHO ARE THEN IMMERSING THEMSELVES IN A LOT OF UNHELPFUL ACTIVITY.

>> SO TELL ME HOW WE BREAK THIS CYCLE.

THIS IS SOMETHING BOTH OF YOU TALKED ABOUT ON THE PIECE.

>> IT'S ALWAYS TRUE.

LIFE IS A MIXTURE OF THE ENVIRONMENT BUT ALSO THE CHOICES WE MAKE.

AND THE MESSAGE THAT COMES THROUGH SOMETIMES FROM POLITICIAN.

SO IF YOU'RE ONLINE TO THESE MEN WHO ARE NOT WORKING IS YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW.

THE POLICYMAKERS SENT THESE JOBS AWAY.

THE ONES THAT ARE LEFT ARE BEING STOLEN BY IMMIGRANTS AND WOMEN ARE RUNNING AN HR COMPLEX THAT IS KEEPING YOU OUT.

THAT IS ENRAGING, BUT IT'S ALSO COMPLETELY DEMORALIZING YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET OFF THE COUCH BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE THERE IS NO HOPE SO.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO ARTICULATE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A PURCHASE WITH YOUNG MEN WHO SAY YES, THERE IS HOPE, ABSOLUTELY.

AND INSTEAD OF RESENTING, FOR EXAMPLE, WOMEN FOR THEM WANTING A GUY WHO CAN PROVIDE, DO IT AS A CHALLENGE THAT YOU SHOULD MEET.

YOU SHOULD BECOME A BETTER MAN TO BE WORTHY OF THOSE COMPLETELY REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY INSTITUTIONS THAT DO HELP MEN FORM CHARACTER THAT ANY OF US ARE CAPABLE OF PARTICIPATING, WHETHER IT'S THE BIG BROTHERS, BIG SISTER, 4-H SCHOOLS, WHERE THAT CAN BE PART OF A SOLUTION.

A LOT OF SCHOOLS DURING COVID WENT TO A MODEL OF NOT REALLY CARING IF PEOPLE SHOWED UP AND BEING INCREDIBLY FORGIVING IF YOU DIDN'T DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND ALL THAT WELL, THAT'S PAST.

WE'RE RETURNING TO THAT THING PART OF WHAT WE'RE TEACHING YOUNG PEOPLE, YOUNG BOYS IS NOT JUST THAT THE ACTUAL CONTENT, BUT THERE ARE THESE PLACES IN LIFE WHERE YOU HAVE TO SHOW UP, AND THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES WHEN YOU DON'T, AND YOU HAVE TO TRY HARD AND YOU HAVE TO WORK ON A TEAM, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THOSE ARE REALLY HEALTHY MESSAGES THAT WE WANT TO PUSH THROUGH EVERY INSTITUTION SO THAT TO THE MEN THEMSELVES ARE MOTIVATED TO NOT LIVE THIS WAY.

>> MR.

ORRELL, DO YOU WANT TO JUMP IN ON THIS TOO?

I KNOW THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS YOU REALLY WANT TO FOCUS ON IS WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONCRETE WAYS THAT YOU CAN POINT YOUNG MEN TOWARD WORK.

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS I THINK NEED TO BE DONE, ONE OF WHICH IS WE NEED TO LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT SSDI, SOCIAL SECURITY DISABILITY INCOME PROGRAM AND ASK TWO QUESTIONS.

FIRST OF ALL, ARE WE LETTING TOO MANY PEOPLE IN?

AND CAN WE TIGHTEN THE STANDARDS SO THAT WE'RE, AGAIN, NOT TO CUT PEOPLE OFF, BUT TO JUST NUDGE THEM BACK AND SAY AND ASK THE QUESTION IS THIS REALLY NECESSARY.

WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO TO SUPPORT YOU AS A WORKER.

AND THAT'S THE SECOND REFORM I THINK.

THAT'S THE STICK.

WE NEED TO BE CARROTS AS WELL.

I THINK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CARROTS IS PROBABLY TO LOOK AT HOW DO WE INCREASE THE VALUE OF WORK FOR MEN IN A SIMILAR WAY TO WHAT WE DID WITH WELFARE RECIPIENT S S SO AN EITC THAT WAS AVAILABLE TO MEN WHO DON'T HAVE KIDS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE LOW INCOME, THEY'RE WORKING MINIMUM WAGE JOBS, CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY TO PLUS UP THEIR INCOME SO THAT THAT WORK FEELS MORE REMUNATIVE AND PROVIDES A GREATER INCENTIVE.

SO I THINK THOSE ARE TWO OF THE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE CAN DO WITHIN PUBLIC POLICY.

AND THEN I THINK KEITH IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE HAVE TO LOOK TO THE OTHER INSTITUTIONS OF SOCIETY TO HELP CARRY THIS MESSAGE THAT WORK IS THE NORM.

IDLENESS IS NOT THE NORM.

WORK IS THE NORM.

AND WE EXPECT, WE HAVE AN EXPECTATION OF MEN IN THIS COUNTRY THAT THEY ARE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR OWN MAINTENANCE AND TO THE MAINTENANCE OF THEIR FAMILIES.

>> BUT, AGAIN, I HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE STRUCTURAL QUESTION.

THE FACT IS JUST THE NUMBERS ALONE, IN YOUR PIECE, 6.

7 MILLION AMERICAN IN THESE PRIME WORKING YEARS OUTSIDE THE LABOR FORCE.

BUT YOU ONLY IDENTIFY UNDER A MILLION JOB OPENINGS IN THESE SPECIFIC INDUSTRIES LIKE CONSTRUCTION.

THAT'S SORRY.

THERE IS STILL A HUGE GAP BETWEEN WORK THAT'S AVAILABLE AND THE MEN WHO PRESUMABLY MIGHT WANT TO DO THAT WORK.

ESPECIALLY NOW THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT TAKING A POSITION ON THE VALUE, THE BENEFITS AND LIABILITIES OF AI, BUT THE REALITY OF IT IS THAT AI IS HERE, AND IT IS GOING TO ELIMINATE CERTAIN KINDS OF JOBS.

THERE IS JUST NO QUESTION.

SO WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT?

>> I THINK THAT THE OPENINGS, THE JOB OPENINGS NUMBERS UNDERSTATE WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

WE DO --WITH EVERY MONTH THE U. S. ECONOMY CREATES AND DESTROYS A WHOLE BUNCH OF JOBS.

THERE IS A LOT OF FLUIDITY IN THE MARKET.

AND I THINK DESPITE SOME OF THE FEARS ABOUT AI AND THE WAY IT MAY DISPLACE, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THAT YET, BUT DESPITE THOSE FEARS, IF YOU TALK TO MANUFACTURERS, IN FACT, THE MANUFACTURING INSTITUTE PUT OUT A REPORT TALKING ABOUT THE HUNGER, THE NEED FOR WORKERS WITHIN THE MANUFACTURING SECTOR THAT GOES BEYOND WHAT WE SEE IN TERMS OF THE OPENINGS, AND THE ECONOMY IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO GROW.

AND AS THE ECONOMY GROWS, WE'RE GOING NEED EVERY SINGLE WORKER WE CAN FIND IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN ECONOMIC GROWTH.

SO I WOULD NOT -- I WOULD BE TRAPPED BY THAT 800,000 NUMBER.

I THINK THAT NUMBER UNDERSTATES WHAT'S ACTUALLY AVAILABLE IN THE ECONOMY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE SKILLS AND HAVE DRIVE TO BE IN THE WORKFORCE AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON.

HOW DO WE HELP THOSE --HELP THOSE MEN WHO ARE OUT OF THE WORKFORCE REDISCOVER WORK AS A PRIMARY VALUE IN THEIR LIVES.

IT'S NOT EASY.

WE WILL NOT SOLVE THIS OVERNIGHT.

WE DIDN'T SOLVE IT OVERNIGHT FOR WOMEN.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT OVERNIGHT FOR MEN.

BUT WE HAVE TO START WORKING AT IT.

.

>> PROFESSOR HUMPHREYS, FINAL THOUGHT FROM YOU.

>> ONE REACTION I'VE HAD, WHICH HAS BEEN VERY INTERESTING IS PEOPLE WRITING, SAYING, YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD BE BLAMING CORPORATIONS.

THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, I'M SITTING HERE ALL DAY GAMBLING AND USING CANNABIS, AND MY THOUGHT IS, YEAH, I BLAME THE GAMBLING CORPORATION AND THE CANNABIS CORPORATIONS.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT CORPORATIONS ARE PREYING ON NONWORK.

AND WE NEED TO RELATE THEM BECAUSE THOSE ARE NOT HARMS ANYONE SHOULD BE EXPOSED TO, BUT SEEM TO BE PARTICULARLY HARMFUL FOR THIS GROUP OF MEN.

>> KEITH HUMPHREYS, BRENT ORRELL, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU, ABSOLUTELY.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AND NOW WE RETURN TO OUR CONVERSATION ABOUT PRESS FREEDOM.

IN EGYPT, A CRACKDOWN ON INDEPENDENT JOURNALISM IS NOW ESCALATING.

THE LATEST MOVE, THE NEWS OUTLET MADA MASR BEING FORCED TO SHUT DOWN.

ITS EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, LINA ATTALAH, HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF MANAGING AN UNLICENSED WEBSITE.

SHE'S BEEN FINED, AND SHE COULD FACE A YEAR IN PRISON AFTER BEING CONVICTED IN ABSENTIA ON SEPARATE CHARGES IN 2024.

NOW ATTALAH FOUNDED THE ORGANIZATION IN THE WAKE OF THE ARAB SPRING AND HAS BEEN A VOCAL ADVOCATE FOR THE IMPORTANCE OF FREE AND INDEPENDENT REPORTING.

REGARDING THE CHARGES, SHE SAYS THE OUTLET DID SEEK A LICENSE TO OPERATE BUT NEVER GOT A REPLY FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

THIS ALSO COMES AS THE UNITED NATIONS CONDEMNS THE ARREST OF THE ENTIRE NEWSROOM TEAM BEHIND THE INVESTIGATIVE WEBSITE MATSIRASH.

SIX STAFF MEMBERS ARE BEING DETAINED.

THEY'RE DEEPLY CONCERNED BY ARRESTS LIKE THESE AND, QUOTE, FORCED DISAPPEARANCES USED TO IMPRESS AND INTIMIDATE JOURNALISTS.

JOURNALIST HAS ONE OF THE HIGHEST RATES OF IMPRISONING JOURNALISTS WITH AT LEAST 25 CURRENTLY BEHIND BARS.

AND LINA ATTALAH JOINS US NOW FROM CAIRO, AHEAD OF HER APPEAL THIS WEDNESDAY.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT BECAUSE WE WANT TO GET YOUR READ ON EXACTLY WHAT THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT IS DOING HERE.

JUST TWO WEEKS AGO YOU WERE FORCIBLY DETAINED AND LEVIED A SIGNIFICANT FINE FOR OPERATING YOUR NEWS SITE WITHOUT A LICENSE.

TO CLARIFY, YOU SAID YOU DID APPLY FOR THAT LICENSE.

YOU DIDN'T GET A REPLY.

YOU'RE RETURNING TO COURT ON WEDNESDAY FOR A ONE-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE HANDED DOWN IN ABSENTIA IN 2024.

NOW THE ACCUSATIONS INCLUDE PUBLISHING FALSE NEWS.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THESE CHARGES?

AND HOW ARE YOU FEELING NOW THAT YOU REALLY ARE IN THE CROSSHAIRS HERE?

>> HELLO AND THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT DOES FEEL LIKE AN UNPRECEDENTED ATTACK AGAINST US AND AGAINST THE VERY FEW NEWSROOMS THAT ARE STILL OPERATING IN EGYPT, THAT WE CAME JUST AFTER THE ARREST OF THE ENTIRE NEWSROOM OF THE PLATFORM SIGNIFIES THAT THIS SEEMS TO BE AN ATTACK AGAINST THE PRESS BY AND LARGE.

IN OUR CASE, THE QUESTION OF LICENSING WAS USED.

A LAW WAS PASSED IN 2018 OBLIGATING ALL ELECTRONIC MEDIA TO APPLY FOR A LICENSE, AND WE APPLIED THE MOMENT THE LAW WAS PASSED, AND WE NEVER GOT A RESPONSE, AND WE DID NOT ONLY APPLY ONCE, BUT MORE THAN ONCE, THREE TIMES.

NEVER GOT A RESPONSE.

THE ONLY RESPONSE WE ARE GETTING IS IN THE SHAPE OF THIS ACCUSATION OF RUNNING A WEBSITE WITHOUT A LICENSE.

AND COMPLETE WAS THE VERDICT TO SHUT DOWN THE MEDIA AND TO FINE US THIS HEFTY AMOUNT OF OVER $50,000.

A VERDICT THAT WE PLAN TO APPEAL, AND WE HAVE AN APPEAL DATE FOR IT ON NOVEMBER 25th.

BUT WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE CASE WAS HOW FAST THIS LITIGATION PROCESS IS, IS THAT COUNTER TO WHAT THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT IS MAKING IT SEEM, WHICH IS JUST THE LEGAL BUREAUCRATIC ISSUE.

IT SEEMS TO BE A QUEST TO SHUT DOWN THE ENTIRE MEDIA, BECAUSE, AGAIN, LICENSING IS A SIMPLE MATTER.

IT'S A FILE THAT YOU SUBMIT, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU GET EITHER AN APPROVAL OR THE OPPOSITE.

BUT WE DIDN'T GET ANY APPROVAL UP UNTIL NOW, BUT NOT ONLY US, BUT A FEW OTHER INDEPENDENT MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS THAT STILL EXIST IN EGYPT HAVE HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE IS TESTAMENT TO THE FACT THAT THE LICENSING IS USED AS A CONTROL MECHANISM MORE THAN A REGISTRATION MECHANISM.

AND NOW WE HAVE THE PRISON SENTENCE THAT I AM FACING FOR WHAT WE'RE GOING FOR A RETRIAL.

AND THE PICTURE IS A BIT MORE COMPLETE.

IT SEEMS TO BE REALLY AN ATTEMPT TO END THE LIFE OF THIS IMPORTANT PROJECT THAT HAS BEEN THERE FOR OVER 15 YEARS.

>> YOU'RE ICAL ABOUT THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT.

DO YOU FEAR BEING IN PRISON?

WE POINTED OUT MORE THAN TWO DOZEN AT THIS HOUR REMAIN IMPRISONED IN EGYPT.

>> OF COURSE I DO.

EVEN THOUGH WE HOLD A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AT JOURNALISTS NOT TO BE JAILED FOR ANY PUBLISHING ACTIVITIES.

BUT I'M QUITE SCARED, ESPECIALLY WITH HOW THE SITUATION HAS EVOLVED IN THE PAST PERIOD IN TERMS OF WHAT SEEMS TO BE A VESTED INTEREST IN SHUTTING DOWN SPACES THAT DO THE REPORTING AND DO THE INDEPENDENT JOURNALISM WORK THAT IS OF RELEVANCE IN THE COUNTRY TODAY.

>> AND I THINK A LOOK BACK AT YOUR WORK IS IMPORTANT HERE, BECAUSE YOU STARTED MADA MASR IN 2013 AROUND THE TIME THAT AL SISI STAGED A COUP AND THROUGH THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT MOHAMED MORSI.

HE CAME INTO OFFICE IN 2012, AND WE ALL REMEMBER IT WAS FOLLOWING THE ARAB SPRING.

I MEAN, WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO START THIS PUBLICATION?

AND I AM WONDERING, IF YOU LOOK AT THE SCOPE OF IT, RIGHT, ALMOST 15 YEARS ON HERE, HOW HAS JOURNALISTIC INDEPENDENCE DEVELOPED OR NOT DEVELOPED IN EGYPT SINCE THE ARAB SPRING?

>> WE STARTED MADA MASR IN 2013, AND IT WAS A DECISION VERY MUCH RELATED TO THE POLITICAL CONTEXT OF THE MOMENT.

IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT EGYPT WAS GOING TO BE UNDERGOING MAJOR POLITICAL TRANSFORMATION AND MAJOR SHIFT IN RULE AFTER THE ARAB SPRING WAS THE MILITARY TAKEOVER.

AND IT WAS --WE FORESAW THAT IT WAS GOING TO REFLECT ON POLITICAL AND SOCIAL LIFE IN DIFFERENT FORMS AND WAYS, AND THERE IS AN IMPERATIVE FOR THE PRESENCE OF AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA TO CREATE A RECORD OF THIS TRANSFORMATION, ESPECIALLY THAT WE ALSO HAD BEEN SEEING HOW THE SPACE FOR INDEPENDENT MEDIA HAD ALREADY STARTED TO DWINDLE BACK THEN.

SO THE PROJECT EMANATED FROM THIS SENSE OF URGENCY THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A COVERAGE OF THIS MOMENT.

WE NEVER KNEW IF WE WOULD SURVIVE OR NOT, BUT WE THOUGHT WE NEED TO START AND WE NEED TO ENGAGE WITH THAT MOMENT.

AT THIS --AT THIS STAGE, 15 YEARS ON SINCE THE ARAB SPRING, I HAVE A LOT OF PRIDE FOR WHAT MADA AND THE OTHER INDEPENDENT NEWSROOMS HAVE MANAGED TO DO IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT REALLY IS TRYING TO STIFLE ALL INDEPENDENT VOICES IN DIFFERENT FORMS AND WAYS SINCE 2013.

BECAUSE WE DID MANAGE TO HOLD A SPACE FOR AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA PRACTICE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE?

ECOLOGY OF MEDIA PRACTICE HAS SORT OF --HAS GONE ASTRAY COMPLETELY WITH MOST MEDIA BECOMING IN A WAY OR ANOTHER COMPLETELY UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE AUTHORITIES.

SO IT'S A VERY LITTLE SPACE LEFT BY VERY FEW OF US.

I THINK THE WORK WE HAVE DONE IS VERY IMPORTANT IN KEEPING WITH A TRADITION OF INDEPENDENT MEDIA THAT HAD STARTED TO THRIVE IN THE MID 2000s UP UNTIL 2011 AND 2012, BUT NOW EVEN THAT LITTLE SPACE THAT WE MANAGED TO HOLD IS BEING THREATENED AS WE SPEAK.

>> AND WHAT'S AT STAKE FOR EGYPTIANS IF THIS INDEPENDENT MEDIA GOES BY THE WAYSIDE AND THIS CHILLING EFFECT CONTINUES TO HAPPEN?

>> MY ARGUMENT IS THAT EVEN THOUGH AUTHORITIES THINK WE ARE THE PROBLEM, AND THIS HAS BEEN VOICED IN DIFFERENT WAYS IN PUBLIC DISCOURSE, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNMENT IS MAKING A LOT OF EFFORT TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION, TO DEAL WITH A LOT OF ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL CHALLENGES, ESPECIALLY WITH THE COUNTRY BEING SURROUNDED BY ALL THIS REGIONAL CONFLICT.

AND THE PROBLEM IS WE NEED THE MEDIA SORT OF NOT TO REFLECTING ALL THESE EFFORTS.

MY ARGUMENT IS THAT IT'S ACTUALLY --IT'S TOTALLY CONTRARY.

IT'S THE MEDIA THAT HAS BEEN TRYING TO EXPLAIN AND RECORD AND CREATE A COLLECTIVE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS CHARGED MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY IN THE RECENT YEARS.

AGAIN, SURROUNDED WITH CONFLICT, AGAIN UNPRECEDENTED ECONOMIC PRESSURES AND SO ON.

AND IT'S BY CREATING THIS ECOLLECTIVE UNDERSTANDING OF THESE CHALLENGES THAT THE THINKING CAN HELP AT LEAST TO INDEPENDENT ENGAGE WITH IT.

IF WE DISAPPEAR I THINK PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, BE LEFT TO, YOU KNOW, ONLINE ARENAS WHERE RUMORS, DISINFORMATION IS ALL WHAT'S LEFT.

AND BASICALLY, THE ASSISTANCE OF CONSPIRACIES AND SO ON.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T REALLY WANT.

SO THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DISAPPEAR.

THE ACCESS OF EGYPTIANS TO INDEPENDENTLY PRODUCE INFORMATION.

>> AND THIS IS A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF ABUSING HUMAN RIGHTS, INCLUDING THE RIGHTS OF JOURNALISTS.

I DON'T HAVE TO REMIND YOU, MICHIGAN SENATOR-ELECT ABDUL EL-SAYED, HE HAS OPENLY CRITICIZED EL SISI'S GOVERNMENT AND OPPOSED MILITARY AID TO EGYPT.

CHRIS VON HALL LEN SAYS THE SHUTDOWN OF THE ORGANIZATION IS, QUOTE, EXTREME, EVEN BY EGYPT'S STANDARDS.

YOU KNOW, I WANT TO SAY TO YOU SOMETIMES I'M SURE PEOPLE IN EGYPT, JOURNALISTS LIKE YOURSELVES BELIEVE LOOK, THE U. S. IS NOT COMING TO SAVE US.

HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW GIVEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND PERHAPS SENATOR EL-SAYED BEING THE SENATOR-ELECT NOW FROM MICHIGAN?

>> I DO NOT THINK THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE EGYPT NEEDS TO BE SAVED BY ANYONE.

I THINK THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE THE EGYPTIAN ADMINISTRATION NEEDS TO THINK FOR ITSELF AND NEEDS TO RETRIEVE WHAT'S LEFT OF ANY POLITICAL REASON AND ANY POLITICAL WISDOM THAT WOULD ALLOW IT TO REALIZE THAT SHUTTING DOWN THE POLITICAL SPACE COMPLETELY IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND THAT, AGAIN, THE PROBLEM IS NOT MADA MASR AND THE PROBLEM IS BIGGER WHEN THESE SPACES ARE GONE.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I STILL WANT TO TRUST THERE IS INTERNAL DOMESTIC POLITICAL WISDOM THAT CAN, YOU KNOW, GET US THERE, CAN GET US TO POLITICAL SOLUTION.

I THINK AS WAS MENTIONED, WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW UNPRECEDENTED BY THE CURRENT STANDARDS.

IT'S A WHOLE NEW LEVEL.

AND THAT'S WHY THERE NEEDS TO BE A REVERSAL, BECAUSE I THINK AFTERMATH OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IS GOING TO BE QUITE GRAVE IN TERMS OF CREATING THIS BLACKOUT.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A MOMENT WHERE COMPLETE BLACKOUT IS POSSIBLE.

BLACKOUT OF INDEPENDENT MEDIA REALLY MEANS REPLACING IT BY, AGAIN, DISINFORMATION, RUMORS, AND FALSE INFORMATION, THE VERY THING THAT I'M BEING ACCUSED OF.

>> LINA, WE HAVE TO LEAVE THERE IT FOR NOW, BUT I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU SPEAKING TO US, ESPECIALLY AFTER WHAT YOU HAVE UPCOMING IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND WEEKS.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE STORY OF YOU AND YOUR PUBLICATION, AND WE TAKE NOTE, YOU JUST GAVE US QUITE A NUANCED RESPONSE TO WHETHER OR NOT THE UNITED STATES COULD AND SHOULD GIVE SUPPORT OR, AS I PUT IT, SAVE YOU FROM THIS FATE.

LINA ATTALAH, EDITOR- IN-CHIEF OF MADA MASR, I WANT TO REALLY THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AND FINALLY FOR US, DIWALI CELEBRATIONS ARE LIGHTING UP THE NIGHT.

THESE WERE THE GLOWING SCENES IN INDIA OVER THE WEEKEND AS WORSHIPERS LIT OIL LAMPS ALONG THE BANKS OF THE RIVER.

KNOWN AS THE FESTIVAL OF LIGHTS, DIWALI IS KNOWN AS THE MOST IMPORTANT HOLIDAY, MOST IMPORTANT IN THE ENTIRE YEAR FOR HINDUS.

IT SYMBOLIZES THE TRIUMPH OF LIGHT OVER DARKNESS AND GOOD OVER EVIL.

WE CAN ALL TRY AND BELIEVE IN THAT.

FIREWORKS, FOOD, AND INTRICATE FLOWER DESIGNS BRING COMMUNITIES TOGETHER WITH OVER A BILLION PEOPLE CELEBRATING AROUND THE WORLD EACH YEAR.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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